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New Guy, Old shooter, Best Scope Question |
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cheaptrick ![]() MODERATOR ![]() ![]() Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20848 |
Welcome to Optics Talk.
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cheaptrick ![]() MODERATOR ![]() ![]() Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20848 |
Something such as this, O Dark One??
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Rancid Coolaid ![]() Optics Jedi Master ![]() ![]() Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8409 |
Possibly dumb question: you run Glocks with RMRs, you run M4-type rifles with Aimpoints, you are scoping an HK91, and you have pretty high demands of the scope: why the $1,000 ceiling?
You are running really good stuff elsewhere, you are buying a not inexpensive rifle, why go with a mid-range scope? If it is of necessity, I get that; if it is because more expensive scopes are seen to have fewer benefits as the price point rises, I get that too. But you are listing the exact characteristics for which higher end scopes excel ( better eye box, usable illumination, good glass.) True, the SS 3-9 and 3-15 are very good scopes for the money, but you have a "must have" of illumination. I agree that an offset red dot is great option, especially on a non-illum SS scope. From your last post, illumination is not needed for dark days, nor will illumination assist much with fast-movers up close with a 3X scope - there will be no time to turn it on and get it set. And no illumination in a scope anywhere near your pricerange will look or function anything like PVS14 or flir. I might recommend, were it my setup, a rifle that costs a bit less, is a bit more user-friendly, and spend what is left on either a scope/red dot combo or a scope that does it all better. The HKs are great guns, but unless one wants it simply for pride in ownership, there are better options in the 308 gas gun area, now more than ever.
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The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."
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burfurd ![]() Optics GrassHopper ![]() ![]() Joined: April/04/2015 Location: Montana Status: Offline Points: 34 |
Rancid, you make excellent points. I'll try to explain my thoughts and see if the explanation holds up to scrutiny--this is the type of discussion I was hoping for. All good thoughts so far.
![]() My feeling on the illumination was this; in a patrolling class you have just what you have. The situation may call for a longer shot (I envision the 800-900 yd max). It may call for sudden up-close engagement (so walking with w/ no more than 2x or 3x on the scope is required--it's good to hear you say illum wouldn't be needed for dark days in the bush--how about night patrol tho'?). The offset red dot is an idea, if the thing was small enough that it didn't get hung up on brush. I think the Aimpoint Micro is way too big to hang off of a scope. The RMR size dot is as big as I'd consider, but it is an idea. I just thought that the illuminated reticle would be a good idea especially at low power, and would allow the scope to handle both situations. In an FFP scope on low power, the illumination would really help to quickly see the crosshairs that are pretty small at that point. For very close situations, the pistol may be the preferred way to deal with things, but I'd give up the power of the rifle and I think the right scope in the dark would be great for quick engagement even out to 1-200 yds, depending. I'd be comfortable with the SS 3-9 HD or the 3-15, just wish it had illum. I think those scopes in that power range would handle the max yardage easily. But my original question was to consider the new Burris XTR II that shares the features of the SS's but with illum too. Just wanted to know if the glass was as good as SS and if they were as rugged. Don't think I need a larger, more powerful scope for this. Am I overlooking some advantages I'm not seeing? ![]() ![]() |
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Rancid Coolaid ![]() Optics Jedi Master ![]() ![]() Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8409 |
There is no question the HK91 is cool as hell. For a gun that will see hard use, it wouldn't be my first choice: it is heavy, parts are not readily available, and guys to work on it will not be frequent - or cheap.
All that said, it is cool - and capable. Next, illumination gets really tricky depending on the conversation: are we talking about running illum at the bottom end of an FFP scope to make the reticle usable in decent to low light, or are we talking about using the illumination in low light at mid magnification? Simply stated, a scope at 9X will be darker than the same scope at 3X, so low light means low/lower power. Then again, at 200 yards in the dark, reticle illumination won't do anything for target identification, forget that scenario. (If you need to make that shot, get a helmet mounted PVS14 and an IR laser, it works awesome. And if you need to transition to the side arm, the glock with RMR is there and ready for NVG use.) If you need 0 yards to 800 or so, your best bet is an offset red dot on a 3-15 or 3-9. Not having an illuminated reticle is only really going to be an issue for 2-3 minutes at very first or very last light, that is really all illumination gets you - making many assumptions. And I too think the aimpoint is too big for a gasser. I have 2 low light setup, one a 308 AR with PEC-15 and a 2.5-10x42 NF NXC compact, the other is a 223 with 18" barrel, and it runs a 3-9SS with an offset RMR or Burris fastfire (same footprint.) NF is illuminated but the scope isn't great at close up, but the laser is great for that application. On the 223, the 3-9 isn't great for close, but the offset is perfect. On your budget, the fastfire/SS3-9 or 2-35 would be my choice. I like the glass and turrets on the 3-9 more, but the 15X on the top would be good for the longer pokes. I know nothing of the Burris so cannot comment on that.
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The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."
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burfurd ![]() Optics GrassHopper ![]() ![]() Joined: April/04/2015 Location: Montana Status: Offline Points: 34 |
On illumination for the scope-I'd only consider using it on Lowest power setting up to maybe 4x or 6x depending on reticle and situation--and only on a dim setting. Mainly, I'd use illum on the FFP scope only at low power to easily see the aiming point Quickly at low/lowest power.
Having said that, I've been inspired to rethink things thanks to all your comments. Thank you. I've ordered a new StrikeEagle 1-6x from SWFA. That will take care of a lot. I'm also thinking of getting the SS 1-4x as well. This frees me up to consider what you clearly recommend--a higher power scope to really address the longer range applications without illumination. Then, there is only one prime consideration; the quality of the glass and reliability. I'm comfortable with this! This is going to put the emphasis on the 300-1000 envelope that I really have not addressed very well. That changes the question entirely. So am I now considering the range of scopes in flavors of Meopta, Zeiss, Swaro, and a bit higher power? Thanks for your expertise on this. ![]() |
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Rancid Coolaid ![]() Optics Jedi Master ![]() ![]() Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8409 |
Actually, no, I am not recommending more power. My gas guns wear 3-9 or 2.5-10, I don't care for more on such a platform. I often tell people to set the gun up for the shot most often taken, not for the exception. Don't build a 1000 yard gun if it will mostly be 200-500 yard shots.
And on the vortex, it is new, it might be awesome, but it is a significant departure from anything previously discussed. It has a reticle calibrated to a 223 round - or the one I have seen does, it is SFP, and the reticle will be a challenge at 1X in any light, from the look of it. Let us know how it goes. These are out sometime this summer, right? |
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data."
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burfurd ![]() Optics GrassHopper ![]() ![]() Joined: April/04/2015 Location: Montana Status: Offline Points: 34 |
Yes, I think they said July-August. Long story so I won't go into it, but I've been reminded that I have a Trijicon 3x9 with illum. mildot. That may take care of some of this too. Still may want another precision scope tho'. Thanks for your reply.
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