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Needed advice on scopes

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/17/2006 at 04:08
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Hey guys, been reading your opinions here for awhile now it's time to ask some questions...

 

I recently purchased a Savage 10FP in .308 with accutrigger.  I can't believe the options for scopes out there !

 

Anyway,  here are the parameters:  I plan to use this rifle for deer, but I want the option to be able to readily apply this weapon in a tactical situation. I also enjoy going out and punching paper with my son. I grew up around guns/hunting and I am no stranger to the subject here.

 

I am inclined toward a variable scope in the range of 4-12X , as the hunting I will do will be anywhere from forest to potential 200-300 ( occasionally greater) yard shots. With this rifles capability, I don't want to underpower my long shots but at the same time have no field of view for the close ones.

 

I also have a budget, say, no more than $ 400, but I need something reliable thats going to stay on zero. I may be able to spend more, if you think it's worth it. 

 

So what's my best buy in scopes?

 

I know you guys will have an opinion, so let me have 'em !

 

Thanks

  

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/17/2006 at 16:14
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Hello

Elite 4200 4-16x50 or Signature Select 4-16x44 is a good choice for your budget.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/17/2006 at 23:46
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...."I want the option to be able to readily apply this weapon in a tactical situation.".....

It really seems to me that given what you have said there is only one choice:

LEU56860 Leupold 3-9x40 Mark 4 PR Riflescope Leupold 3-9x40 Mark 4 PR Riflescope
  • Matte
  • Duplex
  • 1"
  • Target Knobs
SWFA: $399.95
More Info... Buy Now

 

There are lots of hunting scopes out there that are good scopes but the Savage 10FP is a POLICE GUN designed for designated marksmen and other law enforcement officers - and as such you need to put a scope on it that is typical of what the law enforcement community uses on this rifle to negate certain liability issues. If on the other hand you are not employed in a capacity that requires you to be armed you can put any one of many fine scopes on it and ones with balistic type reticles provide instant holdover points to allow easy correction for trajectory compensation.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2006 at 00:22
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No that's a comprehensive response !  I'm not in law enforcement...actually an ICU nurse, but always had a great interest for military and tactical style weapons. I realize there are so many well made scopes it is hard to choose, and I just want to make sure I avoid the substandard brands out there...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2006 at 00:38
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ADAMSDAD the reason why I recomended these two scopes is because of the higher magnification you requested and

the budget you presented. Urimaginaryfriend is right, if you are employed in law Enforcment than go with the Leupold.

Leupold is highly recognized and respected in the law Enforcement community, but I would recomend the 3.5-10x40 PR

which has better glass and I will also recommend that you get the Mil-Dot reticle. The Mil-Dot reticle is very usefull in the field.

Be aware leupold is overpriced and will be a waste of money if you do not have liability issues.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2006 at 01:15
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Hey SVD666....thanks, and I do agree. While Leupold seems to be the #1 choice among professionals, I have trouble dropping a grand for a scope on a $ 600 rifle.  The Bushnell you suggest is one I have considered and I am glad for the feedback reinforcing the quality.

Hey, by the way, if you can locate a Remington 700 Tactical in .308, buy it.  I did a lot of shopping and I found these to be in very short supply, as they are being bought up by the military. The Savage was my second choice.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2006 at 01:17
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Hey by the way, I just sealed a deal on 20 acres, wooded with a cabin, bordering thousands of acres of state land in Michigan......can't wait to try this new rifle out !
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2006 at 09:47
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Some good suggestions.  Here are my $.02.

 

The two scopes suggested by SVD666 are very good for your intended applications.  I'd like to add the Burris XTR line and IOR.  Both have 50mm objective models that can be had for under $760 and their glass is very good. 

 

With regard to the suggestion of Leupold Mark 4, I can't say anything really "bad" about these scopes.  Just a few things you should consider before buying one, however.  For one, they are outrageously expensive for what you get when it comes to glass quality & brightness.  Secondly, the Mark 4 line is designed for target shooting & tactical applications, not necessarily hunting.  You'll see what I mean when you're in the woods or overlooking a field at dusk.  I can think of two occasions hunting where a 50mm Black Diamond lasted over 10 minutes longer (with regard to "shooting time"; being able to make out a deer & make a clean shot) than a Mark 4 in the S. Alabama woods.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2006 at 11:29
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Adamsdad I have a early Remington 700 PSS back when they used douglas barrels and it is one

of my most accurate rifles I own straight out of the box. I have shot the new Remington police rifles

and I was not impressed at all, my cousins .223 PSS could not even feed the rounds properly and

Remington would only take it back with labor fees. I would stay away from the new 700 police rifles

and go with a FN for out of the box performance at a good price.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2006 at 15:47
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This post is a aid for anyone who is looking into purchasing a new PSS.

1: Make sure that it is new, alot of used rifles have crap surplus ammo shot through them.

2:Look for a Pyramid with a D inside of it stamped near the recoil lug.(Douglas Barrel)

3:If it is stamped with a 84 this is a very good year for 700's.

 

Happy shooting to all of you.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2006 at 16:31
Mike McDonald View Drop Down
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Savage 10FP is a POLICE GUN

No, it's not.   It's just another rifle.

..................................what the law enforcement community uses on this rifle to negate certain liability issues.

There are no liability issues involved whatsoever, no matter what sighting system is employed on the rifle. Even if the rifle is used by the police in the performance of their duty.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2006 at 17:16
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Thanks Mike for your input on liability, I did not know this,

I always assumed that there was. It is kind of scary that

there is not, I am going to bring this issue up with a couple of

law enfocement buddies next time I go to the range and see

what they say about this issue and California laws.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2006 at 23:50
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Quote:urimaginaryfrnd    Xotic scope post:Feburary 2006

OK the PR 4.5-14 costs cost 700 to 800. I have a PR 3-9 and I love the target knobs on it but I am not impressed by the glass at 100 yds I could see my .50 cal sabbot musket holes with my $30 3-9 tasco better than I could with the 3-9 PR. I have a VX-III on my sons .50 cal and the glass is great. My Mark 4  8.5-25 and my 10x M3 are both sharp but on the PR series they put the money into the target knobs not the glass. The glass is not really bad but it is just not the quality I have become accustomed to from the other Leupolds I have. So hock your watch or do whatever it takes and go all the way to the LR/T  with M1 knobs you can add a Mil dot later if you need it, I use a laser rangefinder anyway.

 

 

LEU54660 Leupold 4.5-14x50 Mark 4 LR/T 30mm Riflescope Leupold 4.5-14x50 Mark 4 LR/T 30mm Riflescope
  • Matte
  • Duplex
  • 30mm
  • Long Range
  • Side Focus
  • M1 Target Knobs
  • Free Leupold Flip-Open Lens Covers

I would like to present this exellent post in regards to the leupold PR 3-9x40 scope. I agree with urimaginaryfrnd this is the worst tactical scope

ever made by LEUPOLD, it in no way represents the rest of the PR line of scopes. The glass on this scope is comparable to the VX II

line. I do recomend the rest of the PR line if you can find a NEW one at 1/2 to 3/4max of the price.

 

Happy shooting everybody.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/19/2006 at 00:52
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Hey guys, I'm really sorry to hear that about the Rems, the 700 was such a great gun in the past, I thought it was the up and coming collector for the future, you know, like Garands are today.

Imaginaryfreind, I like the Leupolds so long as I can find one that fits my needs and my budget. I think for my purpose I would be overspending for the Mk 4, but I haven't ruled it out completely. I am going to examine head to head all the suggestions you guys have made.

Mike and SVD666, I think you can call a rifle whatever you like, what a weapon is used for, it is what it is. The market is flooded with so many weapons serving multipupose rolls. M-16's and AR's aren't just for the military, either.

Mike, I am curious about your comment regarding liability, and would like to hear more. In a law-suit happy society, I can see an attorney eating up a cop in court, questioning skills, experience, weapons, ballistics, etc.  I have friends in the medical field chewed up by lawyers in court, all based on level of liability. They were put under a microscope in much the same way.  Whether a cop puts a bullet in your head, or a nurse accidentally overdoses a patient and kills them, the ultimate end result is the same.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/19/2006 at 08:12
Mike McDonald View Drop Down
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Adamsdad,
In the witness box the officer is not going to be questioned about weapon selection , caliber, optic or bullet chosen.

He will be questioned about his training, which is documented in his training record and that is the end of the questioning.
This holds for the cop on the street in an officer involved shooting or the slotted tactical shooter. 
Training is easy to come by and easily documented.

On a related subject you also read on the internet about personal carry guns and handload ammo.
Everyone cautions against using this for "liability" reasons.  Never been a documented case of this being raised in court, although the internet myth lives strong.

No one cares in court what the guy was shot with, only why he was shot.  The nurse is held to the higher standard becuase of the
emotional nature of an ailing loved one in the hospital, and that the medical profession pays off out of court like a slot machine.
They are the easy target, pure and simple.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/20/2006 at 19:12
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HI, Mike & ADAMSDAD
I work in law enforcement, we are not allowed to use handloaded ammo on duty or for tacital issues. for several reasons. one is a qustion about internal damage to subject, other words over kill from hot loads, or hotter than factory ammo. an intentional kill like a head shots. you will get rack over the fire. and bullet fragments from ammo used in handloads, and you being in the medical field you know docs. donn't like fragments. even thow you have the a right to defind your self. thay are people out there that thank you did not have to use deadly force. wrong or right it is a liability issue. my self i would rather use my handloads because i can get the load my rifle likes the best with a bullet that will expand proper and not fragment. and you take the rem 700pss that ya'll were talking about if it shoots a one inch group at 100 yards with the best factory loads you can find. with good handloads it will shoot 1/4 to 1/2 inch groups, witch way would you go, and you have two inchs to shoot throw. i have a new rem 700p.out of the box it will shoot 1/2 to 3/4 at 100 with rem 150 grain coreloc. that is what i'm useing to brack it in with. as soon as i find out how to put pic. on this Form i will post some targets 100 and 200 yard 5 shot groups that i'm happy with useing factory ammo. it will be alot better with my handloads. And as for as the scope goes. the ones ya'll are talking about are good ones.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/20/2006 at 19:37
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Longbow, where do ya work?

Here in Texas it's understood that if the crosshairs are on target when I press the trigger siad target will die.  Not maybe, possibly, or overly, it will die.   Target may fragment (and occasionally they do)

Backstop is a concern and shots have to be lined up with  field of fire as a concern.  Last guy I saw headshot was DRT and there was no concern at all.

  Shooters rifle was on target with weapons free for a reason.  Internal damage was not a concern.

Your tac team shooters practice "T" box drills?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/20/2006 at 20:02
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longbow308

I am glad to hear that your 700 is a good shooter out of the box

but that has not been the case with what I have seen and heard

in recent years. A very respected local gunsmith use to recomend

the 700 40x to alot of law enforcment officers but stoped doing that

in abot 92 due to alot of quality issues in the new Rem's. He now

does custom 98 rifles and they have proven exeptional shooters.

He also recomends FN for the price and says that Sako and

Tikka rifles are great out of the box but I do not have any expience

with sako,tikka myself. As far as optics goes he prefers Metric mil-dot

scopes of german make.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/20/2006 at 21:31
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Mike
i work part time in a very small parish in La. we have no tac team. what i was saying is some what a quote by instuctor.that victoms family will try to hang ya on a cross.but i do agree with you very much so, dead is dead know mater were the round struck.my full time job is offshore production of nat. gas and oil. i work 14 on 14 off, when i
i'm home, mostly servalance work on crackhouses and meth labs.until entry then put down cam. and pick up rifle.and watch there back.all of the equipment i have is mine, sheriff office has on budget of that. so i choose to use my handloads, fragment don't matter, like you side dead is dead i like 175 grain and 168 grain thay work well.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/20/2006 at 21:43
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SVD666
IT WILL GET SOME WORK DONE ON IT, NEW TRIGGER,TURE THE BOLT, AND LATTER ON A NEW TUBE. DO YOU KNOW HOW TO POST PIC ON FROM. I'LL SEND PIC OF GUN AND 1, 5- shot 100 yard and 2, 200- yard 5 shot groups there not bad for fac rem .ammo. i have a 6 x 24 x 50 IOR with 35 mm tube on it and love it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/20/2006 at 21:44
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Longbow,

Spent alot of time in recent months from Kinder thru  Lake Charles and to New Orleans.  Isn't much like it used to be. Don't even want to look at Houma, I can only imagine what that's like.
 
Appreciate your budget situation.   Get hold of someone knowledgable in grant writing, you'd be surprised what the feds will spring for, even for a part timer.  We have a deputy that has some nice thermal gear that only he is entitled to use, his name was written into the grant propsal.

In another state I did basically identical duty off in the woods in the late 70's.  Did I mention that I HATE drug dealers.

My local dept has a ruger 77 with a bsa scope on it for their tac rifle.  Now THAT'S liability!  Told them if ever there was a tac team event at my house just to stay home and I'd handle it.

My rifles are marginally more accurate than most but then I'm a demanding, grumpy old curmudgeon that thinks things are supposed to be as right as possible whenever possible..............regardless of the conditions.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/21/2006 at 01:29
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Hey Mike and Longbow.....I figured you must be in law enforcement.....so what's your opinion about the optimum scope for my rifle ?  And speaking of damage caused by bullets....I have worked with EMS, Level I Trauma  for years....seen people survive some of the damndest things, like a .38 at pointblank (must be the worlds thickest skull)...but I am yet to see anyone shot with a high caliber rifle that wasn't SOL or a donor.  Rarely do they make to the donor stage.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/21/2006 at 08:08
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I'm a firm believer that rifles have jobs.  You've provided a good job description for yours. UIF has provided a very good recommendation in the PR scope.  The criteria you set forth screams variable, so I'l add two others that I'd be willing to bet my life on.

Leupold VXIII M3, it's fast, variable, reliable and you can't screw up a single turn knob.

Even faster, and with better glass, is the IOR 2.5-10x without parallax adjustment.
IOR does something really neat and adjusts the parallax as you turn the rear mount power ring.
Down side is that you can't use above 8x at 100 yards or closer, but then why would you?
Up side is one less knob to play with and get wrong, great glass, clarity at any distance and repeatable adjustments in a 30mm tube.
You can find these for less than the Leupold, and I think Chris has an example on the sample list that's just barely above your stated budget.

So we're clear, I'm a design engineer.  Sometimes I work at breaking things that Chris gives me to check out.

 Last century I did other things relevent to the topic under discussion............................ and still do on occasion. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/21/2006 at 10:50
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Hello longbow 308

There is a small icon in the top right where you write your messages (yellow square with mountains in it and a blue arrow right under it). That will allow you to load pictures to your post.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/21/2006 at 11:13
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Longbow 308 I have heard great reviews about the the new IOR 35MM scopes.

I just bought a Nightforce NXS that I will mounting on a SVD and I am always

trying to learn new things so I bought a M1 metric Mark 4 Mil-Dot that I will be

putting on a 700. I decided to go with the NXS over the new IOR 35mm because

I realy liked the mil-dot reticle the Nightforce has. I will post pics and reviews as

soon as possible. The NXS and IOR have better glass than the M1 but I got it at a

good price and metric is something new to me.

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