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Need some scope advice

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2008 at 09:30
doubleB View Drop Down
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Hello folks; I need a little advice on whats what in the optics world nowadays.

I've just bought a DPMS LR308; this is the 24" bull barrel version. Supposed to be a tack driver. I'm used to shooting surplus military scopes at varying ranges, 100/200/300/600Y; recently I've got access to 1000Y. I intend to use this rifle to it's fullest so what I'm looking for is a scope that I can use at all these ranges, probably on a 20MOA base. I also plan on using this on coyote. I'd like the best glass I can get for the money, I need low-light performance, and I've got a a NVD I'd like to be able to use with it too so I'm guessing a wide ranging variable scope, preferably with an illuminated reticle I can range with would be perfect. My price range is between $500-$1K, but I'm not sure how big a difference in glass quality there is in that range (which is why I'm posting I suppose).

I've seen a couple references to a guy named Chris who has compiled a good list on scopes in order of optical quality but I can't seem to find it.

Thanks-
BB
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2008 at 11:40
mercenary1947 View Drop Down
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HeHe ..... a guy named chris ... Laugh He's da big man of SWFA ..... Head%20in%20a%20Box  the list is below

2008 Riflescope Rating Scale

10 - Swarovski Z6, Zeiss Victory

9 - Kahles C - CL & CSX, Schmidt & Bender

8 - Kahles KX, U.S. Optics, Swarovski PH & American, X.O.T.I.C., Zeiss Classic

7 - Bushnell Elite 6500, Leupold VX-7, Nightforce, IOR Valdada

6 - Bushnell Elite 4200, Nikon Monarch & Monarch X, Zeiss Conquest

5 - Leupold Mark 4 VX III & VX-L, Nikon Monarch Gold & Titanium, Sightron SIII

4 - Burris Black Diamond Signature Select XTR & Euro Diamond, Meopta, Pentax Lightseeker, Super Sniper, Trijicon Accupoint, Weaver Grand Slam

3 - Bushnell Elite 3200, Leatherwood, Leupold VX-II, Millet, Nikon Buckmaster, Sightron SI & SII, Vortex

2 - Burris Fullfield II & Timberline, Leupold Rifleman & VX-I, Mueller, Nikon ProStaff, Simmons, Swift

1 - Barska, BSA, Tasco

0 - ATN, Leapers, NcStar

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2008 at 13:28
doubleB View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
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So is there a big difference between the top 4 or so? I'v seen some IOR scopes that looked pretty darn nice, I always thought they were better than Leupold glass. Also theres a whole slew of Kahles Helia C scopes on the sample list; are those in the top 2? Can the reticle and turrets be changed out on those?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2008 at 16:45
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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Where Reality meets the Road::: In the under $500. range the only scope worth a look is the 10x Super Sniper
SS10X42 Super%20Sniper%2010x42%2030mm%20Rifle%20Scope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 Super Sniper 10x42 30mm Rifle Scope
  • Matte
  • Mil-Dot
  • 30mm
  • Rear Focus
  • OK for .50 cal
SWFA: $299.95
More%20Info... Buy%20Now
It has lots of internal adjustment and is very reliable with reasonably good glass for the money. Next step up is IOR 6x42 tactical or the Bushnell 4200 designed to look like a tactical:
426245T Bushnell%206-24x50%20Elite%204200%2030mm%20Rifle%20Scope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 Bushnell 6-24x50 Elite 4200 30mm Rifle Scope
  • Matte
  • 12x Mil-Dot
  • 30mm
  • Rainguard
  • Side Focus
  • Free 5" Sun Shade w/ Purchase
SWFA: $569.95
More%20Info... Buy%20Now
From there we go to :
5214909973 Zeiss%204.5-14x50%20Conquest%20Rifle%20Scope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 Zeiss 4.5-14x50 Conquest Rifle Scope
  • Matte
  • Rapid Z 1000
  • 1"
  • Side Focus
  • Target Knobs
  • Etched Glass
  • 2nd Plane
  • Free $20.00 Zeiss Conquest Baseball Cap w/ Purchase
SWFA: $874.95
More%20Info... Buy%20Now
Next step up is the Real Thing a True Tactical Scope and from there the sky is the limit:
414530 IOR%204-14x50%20Tactical%2030mm%20Rifle%20Scope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 IOR 4-14x50 Tactical 30mm Rifle Scope
  • Matte
  • Illuminated MP-8
  • 30mm
  • Exposed Knobs
  • Side Focus
SWFA: $1,149.95
More%20Info... Buy%20Now


Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - May/05/2008 at 16:58
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2008 at 19:47
Countryscape View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
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double B,

I believe alot of folks on this forum including myself would agree Urimaginaryfrnd has it right on! If I was to add anything, the bushnell 6500 is supposed to be an improvement on  the 4200 series but is probably to new for serious reviews. I'm anxious to hear from those who have purchased the elite 6500.

 
good luck with your new rifle:)
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2008 at 20:07
doubleB View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
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Thanks guys; that Zeiss is intriguing; I never new you could get into a Zeiss for under a grand! Are those in order of quality, so the IOR glass is considered higher quality than the Zeiss??

I've seen the Bushnell 6500 2.5-16x50 listed, but theres not a whole lot of info on it and no reviews. I'd like to have target turrets like that 4200 on it but it doesn't look like it has them. Maybe Bass Proshop has one I can look at.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/06/2008 at 06:04
doubleB View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
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OK I didn't notice the Zeiss has a 1" tube. Thats not going to cut it. Looks like maybe IOR or the Bushnell; does anyone think IOR might increase their prices soon?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/06/2008 at 06:54
doubleB View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
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Wow that IOR is pretty darn heavy too; 35oz! 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/06/2008 at 09:28
supertool73 View Drop Down
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IOR and Zeiss both use glass made by Schott Glasswerk in Germany.  But they each grind their own lenses and apply their own coatings.  Zeiss has some that are better than IOR and I am sure IOR has some that are better than Zeiss.  It depends on the model and the price.  With these higher end scopes you have reached and passed the point of diminishing returns.  So you just have to decide if $800 or $1000 more is worth the extra 5% or maybe 10% better glass. 
One problem with Zeiss tactical scopes is they are very lacking in the adjustment range.  That particular one on the list actually has 68 MOA of elevation which is not to bad for a Zeiss, many of them have less than 50 MOA.  So you just have to make sure they have enough for your type of shooting.

The Bushnell you don't want either for a tactical scope because they only have 50 MOA of travel per the new release spec's and that is not going to be enough for you to reach 1000 yards even with a 20 MOA base.  So just make sure you check on those things.

That IOR has plenty to do what you want.  And that Zeiss would work also.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/06/2008 at 09:28
supertool73 View Drop Down
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IOR just did increase their prices a month or so back.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/06/2008 at 12:50
doubleB View Drop Down
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The specs on Bushnells site say it has 80MOA of adjustment.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2008 at 08:52
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One nice feature of Bushnell's is the bullet-proof warranty: if you don't like it, send it back and Bushnell will mail you a check for 100% the original purchase price.

I had the 4200 tactical for a few months, liked it OK, glass not the greatest (and at $500, it could not be), elevation was limited, the scope just felt kinda fragile for a "tactical" scope. And 24X through a 50mm Obj is not that impressive.

The IOR is probably a very good deal.  Though I hate dealing with IOR Customer Service, their glass is nice.  And since this scope has been out for awhile, any flaws or problems should have been addressed by now.

For your budget, what you want to accomplish, and what you need; I'd say the IOR 4-14 is your best bet.  And the turret (now that they've figured out the numbering) is a nice feature and makes dope changes much simpler.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2008 at 14:06
doubleB View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
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Thanks; the IOR does look good. Couple things about it though, its got MOA turrets and a mil reticle; and the weight seems kinda excessive. Do they make anything with metric turrets?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2008 at 14:11
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IOR has a 2.5-10x and a 3-18x with metric turrets.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2008 at 14:28
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As for weight: a few extra ounces on a semi-auto .308 with a 24" bull barrel won't be a problem.  It ain't a stalking gun.

They do have metric/metric.
Supertool loves their Customer Service due to a good experience.  I hate their Customer Service due to a few terrible experiences (and the fact that IOR let a defective scope stay out there without recalling it); with luck, your experiences will more closely align with his.

Best luck.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2008 at 16:35
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

IOR and Zeiss both use glass made by Schott Glasswerk in Germany.  But they each grind their own lenses and apply their own coatings.  Zeiss has some that are better than IOR and I am sure IOR has some that are better than Zeiss.  It depends on the model and the price.  With these higher end scopes you have reached and passed the point of diminishing returns.  So you just have to decide if $800 or $1000 more is worth the extra 5% or maybe 10% better glass. 
One problem with Zeiss tactical scopes is they are very lacking in the adjustment range.  That particular one on the list actually has 68 MOA of elevation which is not to bad for a Zeiss, many of them have less than 50 MOA.  So you just have to make sure they have enough for your type of shooting.

The Bushnell you don't want either for a tactical scope because they only have 50 MOA of travel per the new release spec's and that is not going to be enough for you to reach 1000 yards even with a 20 MOA base.  So just make sure you check on those things.

That IOR has plenty to do what you want.  And that Zeiss would work also.
 
You bet....in the past IOR has made camera lenses for Pentagon ( East Germany) for use in the Praktica camera.  Just because manufacturers use Schott glass doesn't mean they are using Zeiss technology....they are just buying glass from Zeiss-owned Schott Glasswerk.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/14/2008 at 21:01
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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Ed I thought that Zeiss went in and helped IOR rework their plant a couple of years back, could be wrong but I think there is some kind of friendly relationship between the two. I hate to think how much the IOR scopes have gone up over the last two years I would like to pick one up but it is really hard for me to justify another over a thousand dollar scope. I am pretty happy with my Leupold Mark 4 scopes and think that they make sense also because they are made here and have great customer service and high reliability. 
 
I have a 10x Super Sniper on my 24 in DPMS .308 and I like it but if I could afford to pick up another scope It would likely be the Leupold Mark 4 in the 6.5-20x50  and then I would put Kenton Industries knobs on it   http://www.kentonindustries.com/ 
(mainly because you cant get the knobs for an IOR and the Mk4 seems tougher than the Zeiss Conquest with exposed target knobs.)
LEU60080 Leupold%206.5-20x50%20Mark%204%20LR/T%2030mm%20Riflescope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 Leupold 6.5-20x50 Mark 4 LR/T 30mm Riflescope
  • Matte
  • Tactical Milling Reticle
  • 30mm
  • Side Focus
  • M1 Target Knobs
  • Free Leupold Flip-Open Lens Covers
SWFA: $1,149.95
More%20Info...
 Here is another possible
LEU54660 Leupold%204.5-14x50%20Mark%204%20LR/T%2030mm%20Riflescope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 Leupold 4.5-14x50 Mark 4 LR/T 30mm Riflescope
  • Matte
  • Duplex
  • 30mm
  • Long Range
  • Side Focus
  • M1 Target Knobs
  • Free Leupold Flip-Open Lens Covers
SWFA: $974.95
More%20Info...
If you put the Kenton knobs on and use a laser rangefinder who cares its just duplex.

Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - May/14/2008 at 21:10
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/22/2008 at 13:03
doubleB View Drop Down
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I ended up buying the IOR 4-14x50 illuminated MP8; I am extremely pleased with the glass in this scope. I figured, with the MP8 reticle and a dope sheet I probably won't need to adjust my turrets for range, plus I got an outstanding deal. Thanks everyone for the help.
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