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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/24/2008 at 16:46
cidme View Drop Down
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I am looking to get my Dad a scope for x-mas.  He has a cheapo simmons 3-9x40 at the moment, but he really hates it.  He is would rather have somthing with alot of eye relief and and really wide field of view.  80% of his shooting is between 40-80yrds.  From what I have researched so far it seems like the 1-4 power scopes give you some of the widest field of views and they also seem to have the most eye relief.  Is this correct?  Is at least 4" or more of eye relief unrealistic?  Trying to stay in a 250.00 budget.  All ideas are welcome.
 
Thanks
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/24/2008 at 17:43
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Hates that Simmons uh??? Easy to understand. A 3x9 for 40 to 80 yard work?? Nope! No No....
 
You are correct about the 1x4`s.
 
For the better quality lower powered variables, raise your budget more and get a good scope this time around.
 
The best lower powered variables close to your price range, that will do everything you want for your dad is;
 
Leupold VX2 1-4x20........A light 9 oz, great FOV`s and great eye relief from 3.8" or so to over 4 inches.
 
Another choice is the fixed 2.5x Leupold FX2 Ultralite at 6.5 oz with 39.5'  FOV @ 100 yards. Has 4.9" of eye relief!! However, you lose more FOV while gaining a more compact, simpler and lighter scope. Nonetheless, a great choice for short range work.
 
The Weaver V3 1-3x20 for $150 is less money, but won`t quite offer the eye relief of the Leupolds above. A good scope for the money with 87' FOV on the 1x.
 
Also, consider the red dots. Burris Speed Dot or the Nikon VSD.
 
Unlike the 3x9`s, all above can be used with both eyes open, for very fast target acquisition and aiming.
 
 
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/24/2008 at 18:12
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Squeezer pretty much summed it up, the Leupold vx2 1-4 is a nice scope if your willing to pay $300.00
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/24/2008 at 19:20
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Just out of curiousity what makes the 3-9 a poor choice? Is that too much magnification or is there another prob?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/24/2008 at 19:34
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not trying to go cheap, but what about this scope?  I have heard great things about Vortex Bino's but not much on there scopes.  This has alot of eye relief.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/24/2008 at 19:35
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The 3x9 is not a bad choice for a hunting scope, its just that you mentioned your shots would be under 150 yds, so there isn't a need for anything for over 4x and the 1-2x are a very usefull for close range.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/24/2008 at 20:02
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Originally posted by cidme cidme wrote:

Just out of curiousity what makes the 3-9 a poor choice? Is that too much magnification or is there another prob?

................At the much shorter ranges your talking about, 40 to 80 yards 80% of the time, 3x9 scopes have reduced FOV`s because of their increased magnification. The larger your target as seen through the scope, doesn`t necessarily make things better. Compare the 100 yard FOV specs set on the 1x for the VX2 1-4x20 vs the FOV specs set on 3x for a few 3x9`s here on this site.
 
Anytime you increase power while reducing the FOV, it makes things all that much more difficult and takes more time (if even for a second or two) to acquire your target, aim and shoot. Your brain, my brain and all brains react faster to a wider FOV from the point we first see the target, shoulder the rifle, acquire the target, aim and then shoot. Even from a stand or a blind, hunting at the shorter ranges, I much prefer a wide FOV.
 
A 2.5x8, a 3x9, a 2.5x10, etc., is far better suited as a longer range scope for shots from 300-500 yards on average and sometimes more. For the kill shots, in most cases, those scopes are seldom set beyond 5x or 6x anyway.
 
I`m not saying that close range hunting (40 to 80 yards) cannot be done with a 3x9. However, the lower powered variables make it much easier and faster if needed. A split second or two can make a difference between filling a tag vs not filling one.
 
You can always make a faster scope,, slower, but you cannot make a slower scope,, faster!! 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/24/2008 at 20:18
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I have used 3-9x and 4x fixed scopes my whole life and have never not been fast enough.  I have had charging elk coming out to the trees 30 yards from me and easily had plenty of time to pull up and make the hit with a 3x, it more about the shooter than the gear.  Unless I was hunting dangerous game I would always pick a 3-9x over a lower magnification.  I think it is the perfect magnification for virtually all north american game.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/24/2008 at 21:53
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

I have used 3-9x and 4x fixed scopes my whole life and have never not been fast enough.  I have had charging elk coming out to the trees 30 yards from me and easily had plenty of time to pull up and make the hit with a 3x, it more about the shooter than the gear.  Unless I was hunting dangerous game I would always pick a 3-9x over a lower magnification.  I think it is the perfect magnification for virtually all north american game.
put me on that train too! 4x seems like a stretch when you want to take that 400yd shot, its nice to be able to go to 6-8x if you really need the extra confidence. if your dad sits in a stand all season long and doesnt have any chance whatsoever to make a longer shot then go for a 1x4 or 1x6.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/24/2008 at 22:06
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

I have used 3-9x and 4x fixed scopes my whole life and have never not been fast enough.  I have had charging elk coming out to the trees 30 yards from me and easily had plenty of time to pull up and make the hit with a 3x, it more about the shooter than the gear.  Unless I was hunting dangerous game I would always pick a 3-9x over a lower magnification.  I think it is the perfect magnification for virtually all north american game.
....................Whatever speed that you have enjoyed for years with your fixed 4x or a 3x9, I`m sure has been good enough. However! You, me or anyone else, will be all the more quicker with a 1x to a 1.5x on the low end with a scope capable of looking through with both eyes open while having a wider FOV.
 
Here`s why......Simply put, your fixed 4x, any fixed 4x and all 3x9`s (except the 3x9 Trijicon), require the non-aiming eye to remain closed in order to acquire the target through the scope. In that case, the signal to the human brain with only one eye open is always slower which increases reaction time, acquisition time to the target, which in turn increases the time to the shot.
 
In other words, both eyes open acquiring and aiming with a wider FOV, is always faster than the conventional way of one aiming eye open looking through the scope, while the other eye is closed..........It is a matter of brain physiology not in your control nor mine.
 
With one eye open and one closed, whatever the speed or quickness one has mastered with a fixed 4x or with a 3x9, will always be trumped or bettered with a scope which has both eyes open acquiring capabilities. The human brain says so! Not me!
 
Within a 100 yards, regardless of terrain, dangerous game or non dangerous game, charging or otherwise, I`ll take a 1x to a 1.5 (wider FOV) to 5x anytime over a fixed 4x or a 3x9. And set on the 5x, I`ll still have the capability for a 400-500 yard plains shot should I have the need for a long precision shot.
 
I`ve hunted with fixed 4x`s and 3x9`s for years in closer cover and at the shorter ranges and like them. But for the above reasons, the lower variables are simply better.
 
 
 
  
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/24/2008 at 22:16
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I use a 1x every season squeeze for muzzleloading, it is not any faster than my 3x for hunting distances.    It is not the power that makes the bindon aiming concept work.  It is the fact that your dominant eye is on the same side as your firing hand.  I use both eyes open with my 4x IOR on my AR all the time, it is all about training.  If my hunting took place within 15 or 20 yards then I would totally agree with you.  But how often does that really happen?   3x is plenty low.  In fact I prefer having a little magnification for 40 to 50 yard shots anyway.  I have always prefered using my 3 and 4x scopes over my 1x muzzleloader scopes.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/24/2008 at 22:16
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Thanks for all th input guys.  I think your on the money with Dad's train off thought Squeeze.  He is more of a stalk in hunt type. 

But my second question about the vortex, I see I left out the link. sorry here it is
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/24/2008 at 22:34
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

I use a 1x every season squeeze for muzzleloading, it is not any faster than my 3x for hunting distances.    It is not the power that makes the bindon aiming concept work.  It is the fact that your dominant eye is on the same side as your firing hand.  I use both eyes open with my 4x IOR on my AR all the time, it is all about training.  If my hunting took place within 15 or 20 yards then I would totally agree with you.  But how often does that really happen?   3x is plenty low.  In fact I prefer having a little magnification for 40 to 50 yard shots anyway.  I have always prefered using my 3 and 4x scopes over my 1x muzzleloader scopes.  
.........No matter how hard I practiced and tried with my previous 3x9 4200 and earlier 3x9`s, or the fixed 4`s I`ve had, I always had to close one eye.
 
Immediately after I got my new 1.5-5x20 VX3 and mounted it up and started practicing, there was an immediate difference. What I can now do with my 2.5-8x28 Nikon Monarch EER and VX3, I could never do with the others I`ve owned, let alone friend`s 4`s & 3x9`s.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/24/2008 at 22:42
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Originally posted by Big Squeeze Big Squeeze wrote:

Here`s why......Simply put, your fixed 4x, any fixed 4x and all 3x9`s (except the 3x9 Trijicon), require the non-aiming eye to remain closed in order to acquire the target through the scope. In that case, the signal to the human brain with only one eye open is always slower which increases reaction time, acquisition time to the target, which in turn increases the time to the shot.
 


What is different about the Trijicon 3x9? And is what you are saying true just at 3x or all the way to 9x?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/24/2008 at 23:03
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Originally posted by cidme cidme wrote:

Thanks for all th input guys.  I think your on the money with Dad's train off thought Squeeze.  He is more of a stalk in hunt type. 

But my second question about the vortex, I see I left out the link. sorry here it is
....................With optics as no exception, you in most cases get what you pay for.
 
Price points are always a good indicator of quality.
 
The Vortex has the right magnification, has very good eye relief specs and the FOV while not the best, is still good. I`m not familiar with this scope`s optical quality, but chances are, based on the price difference, it is very likely that its optics are not as good or as resolute as the 1-4x20 VX2.
 
This scope`s weight lists at 14 oz!! Very weighty for a low powered variable. The VX2 is 9 oz. or 35% lighter. Every ounce counts when climbing or hiking.
 
It will probably work just fine. Its a matter of personal priorities and preferences that your dad is looking for. But I`ll say that between the Vortex and the Leupy, I`d rather take the Leupy even with the increased price.
 
If your dad is the stalk and hunt type as you state, all the more reason for the quicker lower variable. Within a 100 yards, they can`t be beat!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/24/2008 at 23:27
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Originally posted by Sparky Sparky wrote:

Originally posted by Big Squeeze Big Squeeze wrote:

Here`s why......Simply put, your fixed 4x, any fixed 4x and all 3x9`s (except the 3x9 Trijicon), require the non-aiming eye to remain closed in order to acquire the target through the scope. In that case, the signal to the human brain with only one eye open is always slower which increases reaction time, acquisition time to the target, which in turn increases the time to the shot.
 


What is different about the Trijicon 3x9? And is what you are saying true just at 3x or all the way to 9x?
................The 3x9 Trijicon has a different aiming system called the "Bindon aiming System" which use Tritium lighted reticles like an arrow on top of the post as well as other reticle choices.
 
What seperates the Trijicon from all other 3x9`s are the same reasons I listed earlier in this thread with regard to both eyes open aiming capability and the fact that the human brain reacts quicker to a both eyes open system rather than aiming conventional way. A glowing Tritium reticle is even quicker still.
 
I personally havent tried the 3x9 Trijicon while on the 9x, but have tried one set on the 3x and 4x. It does exactly as advertised set on the lower powers.
 
In case of surprises and charging game, faster acquisition and aiming shots are always at the shorter distances. So, set on the 5x and above for longer range precision shooting, I`m not interested whether or not I have both eyes open capabilities, because that isn`t necessary.  
   
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/24/2008 at 23:47
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The bindon aiming concept is not really a trijicon invention.  They have just kind of marketed it as their own.  Like I said before it will work with any scope as long as your dominant eye and firing are the same side.  Granted the bright reticle certainly helps in the speed though.  But any red dot or reticle with a horseshoe type reticle works very well with it also. 

Also I really don't see the need for both eyes open shooting for longer distances anyway.  I can see it for really close in stuff like 25 yards and under it is helpful if your target is moving and especially if you are moving as well.  But for beyond that there is no need for it.  Especially 50 and beyond. 

All the time I spend training with the AR 15 in tactical simulators and stuff once you get beyond 50 or so yards it becomes more about precision and you will always be able to be more precise by closing the one eye and focusing on your sight alone.   
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/25/2008 at 18:17
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Originally posted by cidme cidme wrote:

I am looking to get my Dad a scope for x-mas.  He has a cheapo simmons 3-9x40 at the moment, but he really hates it.  He is would rather have somthing with alot of eye relief and and really wide field of view.  80% of his shooting is between 40-80yrds.  From what I have researched so far it seems like the 1-4 power scopes give you some of the widest field of views and they also seem to have the most eye relief.  Is this correct?  Is at least 4" or more of eye relief unrealistic?  Trying to stay in a 250.00 budget.  All ideas are welcome.
 
Thanks

What is x-mas??
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/25/2008 at 20:33
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Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Originally posted by cidme cidme wrote:

I am looking to get my Dad a scope for x-mas.  He has a cheapo simmons 3-9x40 at the moment, but he really hates it.  He is would rather have somthing with alot of eye relief and and really wide field of view.  80% of his shooting is between 40-80yrds.  From what I have researched so far it seems like the 1-4 power scopes give you some of the widest field of views and they also seem to have the most eye relief.  Is this correct?  Is at least 4" or more of eye relief unrealistic?  Trying to stay in a 250.00 budget.  All ideas are welcome.
 
Thanks

What is x-mas??
your joking right kb??
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/25/2008 at 21:03
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The 3-9x is the most popular scope for a reason..it simply is the best magnification for the average hunter.  If I was going to buy a scope for anyone, I would pick a 3-9x because it allows the user to shoot short and far distances (200-250 yards) well.  I am like someone earlier said, I like a little magnification even at 40 to 50 yards. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/25/2008 at 21:04
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you're BOTH joking, right??    [I love you guys!!!  Roll on Floor Laughing]  
 
 
this is better than THE TEE-VEE!!   Shocked
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/25/2008 at 21:07
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ed connelly king of the boob tube!
get back to trippin pipe rough neck!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/25/2008 at 21:30
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                                                                                                        Laugh
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/25/2008 at 21:32
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im so mean to you edyou probably spent more time on the floor than in the derrick
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/25/2008 at 21:42
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I spent all my time on the pits or horsing around in the mud room.   Years ago, back when we lived in America, one could walk a little ways away from the rig and shoot a 22 pistol to amuse oneself.   Shocked
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