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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/17/2008 at 15:29
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I have a Ruger No. 1 chamberred in 7mm Remington Magnum.  Right now it is wearing a 3-9 Leupold of 1970s vintage.  I have used it for deer hunting for a number of years.  The rifle is very accurate and the scope is plenty adequate for hunting purposes, but  . . .

Well, you see I got married and now I have a house payment and a car payment and all sorts of expenses that I never had before.  Thus rather than buy a new target rifle and scope, as I formerly would have, upon discovering that my new neighbor has a 600 and 1000 yard range set up on his property, I am constrained to do what I can with my trusty #1.  The 1000 yard target is incredibly small even at 9X.  Furthermore, I would like to have target turrets because if I keep removing and replacing the aluminum dust caps, one of these days I will cross-thread one and that is going to make me mad.  I am thinking that either a 4.5-14 or a 6-24 variable scope (or similar mag ranges) would be just the ticket.  Given my financial priorities at this point in my life, I think that good scopes from Kahles, Zeiss, Swarovski, and Leupold are a touch out of my price range.   However, I plan to shoot the Berger 180 grain bullet, so I need a well-buit scope that can withstand recoil without moving, and I want a scope that clicks with reasonable precision if I am to have any hope of competing with my neighbor.  On the other side of the equation, I would prefer to maintain the hunting utility of the rilfe without changing scopes every hunting season.  I would like forum members' recommendation for magnification and scope models that would be the best compromise among these criteria.  Ideally I would like recommendations in the around $200 category, and recommendations in the around $500 category.  Thanks in advance for any advice. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/17/2008 at 15:42
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Aside from target shooting what are your typical hunting ranges?  Depending on your answer may be difficult to try to combine these two very different priorities.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/17/2008 at 16:13
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I hunt in open rolling prarie.  There is no brush or trees for cover, just grass and terrain.  Rarely does one get a shot at less than 100 yards, and I carry a 44 mag in case of any fluke shots like that.  Greater than 200 is typical.  I am not very comfortable taking shots at greater than 300 unless I can get a very good rifle rest, but in cases where I could get a good rest, I would say that the outer limit of shots that I would attempt is 600 yards. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/17/2008 at 19:46
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The best compromise for you would probably be a scope of 4-16x40 or similar. 

For $200 or so, it is difficult to get a high magnification scope that is worth the price tag.  In that price range you can buy a couple of good quality 3-9x42 scopes that will give an image much better that your old scope: Sightron S2 3-9x42 and Nikon Team Primos 3-9x40.

In the under $500 range there are several good scopes.  I suggest you take a close look at Bushnell Elite 4200 4-16x40 and Vortex Viper 4-12x40 (I am currently reviewing it and am quite impressed) and 6.5-20x44.  With Vortex Viper, take a look at their Dead-Hold BDC reticle.  It is well designed.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/17/2008 at 23:06
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http://www.kentonindustries.com/  under yardage formats scroll down to TTC for Leupold coin slot. The stoney point converts leupold coin slot scopes to target knobs.
 
Anyway what would you think about hunting with a fixed 10x 42  the Super Sniper 10x 42 is a very nice scope for the money and has lots of internal adjustment you would need 30mm rings and I will forewarn you that not all rifles are thousand yard rifles but you will have lots of fun trying to get there.
SS10X42 Super%20Sniper%2010x42%2030mm%20Rifle%20Scope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 Super Sniper 10x42 30mm Rifle Scope
  • Matte
  • Mil-Dot
  • 30mm
  • Rear Focus
  • OK for .50 cal
SWFA: $299.95
More%20Info... Buy%20Now
the other scopes I would look at are a tad out of your price range but have 100 moa of internal adjustment which should get you to the 1000 yd mark and most scopes wont:
LEU56140 Leupold%204.5-14x40%20Mark%204%20LR/T%2030mm%20Riflescope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 Leupold 4.5-14x40 Mark 4 LR/T 30mm Riflescope
  • Matte
  • Duplex
  • 30mm
  • Long Range
  • Side Focus
  • Target Knobs
SWFA: $674.95
More%20Info...
604230 IOR%206x42%20Tactical%2030mm%20Rifle%20Scope%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20%20 IOR 6x42 Tactical 30mm Rifle Scope
  • Matte
  • MP-8
  • 30mm
  • Free 2.5" Sun Shade w/ Purchase
SWFA: $644.95
More%20Info... Buy%20Now
The 6x42 would be a fine choice for a hunting scope but a little low on power at 1000 still I think you could stand a better chance with this than most scopes because it has awesome glass - far better than the Leupold glass. It does have a steel tube so you have to wipe it down to prevent rust.


Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - July/17/2008 at 23:07
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2008 at 06:59
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I second the above, I would like to add that there is a scope choice in the variable range Tactical Target type.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2008 at 12:34
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Good advice hogwrestler.  If it's possible to save up a little bit more your options expand greatly as noted by Koshkin, Urimaginaryfrnd & cyborg.  Might be better than buying a cheap high power rig now with poor resolution.  I now it's tough when you want to shoot NOW.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/18/2008 at 18:57
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The Millett and the Swift are both decent for the money. Good customer service, and, I believe, better than expectations optically for the price. If you get up to the $750 range you will get a much better scope, though.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/21/2008 at 12:52
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All right, all right!  Hit me with what I could get in the $750 range--and why it is worth the money!  Thanks. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/21/2008 at 15:37
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Originally posted by hogwrestler hogwrestler wrote:

All right, all right!  Hit me with what I could get in the $750 range--and why it is worth the money!  Thanks. 
 
I suggest the SWFA samplelist. 
8630 Kahles 3-10x50 Helia CL Multizero 51723, Matte finish, 1" tube, plex reticle, side focus, fast focus eye piece, allows you to zero your scope at five different ranges, close to new condition. $1,315.00 $749.95
8663 Kahles 3-10x50 Helia CL Multizero 51723, Matte finish, plex reticle, 1" tube, side focus, fast focus eye piece, allows you to zero your scope at five different ranges, close to new condition. $1,315.00 $749.95
 
8022 Nikon 2.5-10x44 Monarch X 8412, Matte finish, mil dot reticle, 30mm tube, side focus, 1/4 moa target knobs, like new condition. $1,020.00 $799.95
8996 Nikon 2.5-10x44 Tactical 6687, Matte finish, red/green illuminated mil dot reticle, 30mm tube, side focus, 1/4 moa target knobs, fast focus eye piece, ring marks, factory reconditioned $1,605.00 $799.95
 
I got a chance to play with the Kahles Helia CL with multi-zero the other day and it is really a fine optic. Glass is excellent and provides all you asked for.  The zero at five different ranges is quite useful.
The Nikon tactical is a superb deal.  Very hard to beat. 
 
Why are they worth the money... 1) meets or exceeds your requirements, 2) has superior optics.   Very good low light optics.  Both have side parallax adjustment and fast focus eyepiece.  I am currently in the market for a "high end" scope, but am considering one of these as a bridge.  I was impressed enough with the Kahles that I may just get it and forget the "high end". 
 
I don't believe you would be unhappy with either.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2008 at 20:09
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After much deliberation, I am strongly disposed to go with the Bushnell Elite 4200 in 4-16.  I am not so sure whether to go with the 40mm or 50mm objective lens.  Any advice on that?  I assume that the 50 will be brighter and have a wider field of view, but will also require taller mounts (which may not be a big deal on a rifle intended for long range). 

The other thing is I think that I would prefer a mil-dot reticle, but it seems that the 4200 only comes with the M-plex reticle.  Any thoughts on that? 
 
Another thing--I think that the 4200 has 50 MoA of adjustment.  Will that be enough? 
 
Lastly, what is better, if anything, about the 6500 series from Bushnell? 
 
Thank you all for your help.  It is much appreciated.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/10/2008 at 23:38
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First of all, I admit this is partially a bump of this thread.  My apologies if it is uninteresting; I am assuming that it simply got too far down the list to be noticed.  I do have more questions, though. 

Can someone confirm or quash my logic that if I need 20-30 MoA to compensate for bullet drop at 1000 yards--presuming a 100-yard original zero--then 50 MoA of total vertical adjustment should be adequate? 
 
I couldn't help noticing that a new Bushnell Elite 4200 in 4-16x50 is within $100 of several used Zeiss Conquests on the sample list.  So I guess my question is which is a better bet--a high-end, new Bushnell or a lower-end, used Zeiss.  I use Zeiss and Leica microscopes everyday and quite frankly when it comes to image quality and durability, American and Japanese microscopes really don't even compare.  Is it the same with rifle scopes? 
 
Thanks for reading. 
 
 -- HW
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/11/2008 at 11:37
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 It's almost like asking .... do I want a lower end Rolls Royce or a high end Chevy ??

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/11/2008 at 11:48
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Bushnell 4200 scopes are not a good choice for a 1000 yard scopes.  The limited travel in them even with a 20 or 30 MOA base may not get you where you want to be.  If you are able to attain 1000 yards with a 30 MOA base you may not be able to get a 100 or even 200 yard zero.  There is no way to know for sure because each scope on every gun will zero different and you will not know for sure.

Also that scope you are looking at just not have large target type adjustment turrets on it.  If you want to shoot at varying distances you need to have target turrets that you can change and still reset back to your zero. 

Zeiss is not a good choice for a long range tactical scope either for the same reasons as the Bushnell 4200.  Some of the Zeiss may have slightly more travel, but you are still going to be right of the virge of work or not working. 

If you are after a Bushnell, I would jump up to the 6500 if you can fit it in your budget.  IT has the same glass as the 4200, but it has more interenal travel and with a 20 MOA base it should be able to attain a 100 yard zero and get you to 1000 or beyond.  It also has adjustable resetable turret adjustments.  If not and you are willing to use a fixed power scope I would get a Super Sniper 10x. 


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/11/2008 at 12:18
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Originally posted by mercenary1947 mercenary1947 wrote:

 It's almost like asking .... do I want a lower end Rolls Royce or a high end Chevy ??

 
I would with no reservations take my Dad's  2008 Corvette Z06 over any Rolls ever made.  Does that help?
 
 -- HW
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Bushnell 4200 scopes are not a good choice for a 1000 yard scopes.  The limited travel in them even with a 20 or 30 MOA base may not get you where you want to be.  If you are able to attain 1000 yards with a 30 MOA base you may not be able to get a 100 or even 200 yard zero.  There is no way to know for sure because each scope on every gun will zero different and you will not know for sure.
 
I'm not sure if I made it clear, but with the ballistic coefficients (>0.6) and velocity ranges (2800-3100 fps) that I am working with, I will only need 20-30 MoA of adjustment to get from a 100 yard zero to 1000 yard zero.  Perhaps I am naive, but it seems to me that 50 MoA of adjustment would give plenty of lattitude.  If I am naive, please alleviate my ignorance. 

Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Also that scope you are looking at just not have large target type adjustment turrets on it.  If you want to shoot at varying distances you need to have target turrets that you can change and still reset back to your zero. 
 
Good point, though it does seem a somewhat surmountable problem.   

Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Zeiss is not a good choice for a long range tactical scope either for the same reasons as the Bushnell 4200.  Some of the Zeiss may have slightly more travel, but you are still going to be right of the virge of work or not working.

Good to know--that saved me a lot of time and money.  My biggest worry about Zeiss is whether I would have good customer service.  It's not that I think that Zeiss has bad customer service; I just know how customer service suffers when the customer is separated from the company by a continent and a large body of water, not to mention language barriers. 

Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

If you are after a Bushnell, I would jump up to the 6500 if you can fit it in your budget.  IT has the same glass as the 4200, but it has more interenal travel and with a 20 MOA base it should be able to attain a 100 yard zero and get you to 1000 or beyond.  It also has adjustable resetable turret adjustments.  If not and you are willing to use a fixed power scope I would get a Super Sniper 10x. 
 
Alas!  If only I weren't trying to have a dual purpose rifle, I would just buy a Super Sniper and shut up.  I would be perfectly happy with a fixed-power scope for the long range stuff.  It's just that hunting with a 10X, fixed-power scope doesn't seem feasible to me.  Of course, at the present price tag it wouldn't be a lot more expensive to buy a new rifle and a Super Sniper scope.  Big%20Smile
 
I am not set on Bushnell particularly--it's just that the Bushnell seems to be highly respected in this forum.  I am open to Burris and Leupold particularly since they are domestic, and I have a Nikon 4.5-14 that has been quite satisfactory on my varmint disassembler.  I must admit an addiction to a sharp image. 
 
I note that scopes in the Bushnell Elite 6500 series have extremely wide magnification ranges.  I am a litte leary of this because my experience with camera lenses is that the wider the zoom range, the crappier the image.  Does this paradigm apply to these scopes? 
 
Elsewhere in this forum someone recommended the Elite 4200 for everything but a heavy-recoiling rifle.  Well, my 7 MM shooting 180 grain bullets at around 3000 FPS recoils a bit (I calculate 25-30 ft-lbs of recoil energy), but is no .375 H&H.  Would you all generally consider the strength of the 4200 and 6500 series scopes to be adequate for that amount of recoil energy? 
 
Thanks for all of the information. 
 
 -- HW
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/11/2008 at 13:14
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Zeiss is always a good bet but the Kahles scopes will be better than the Conquest line and close to the Diavairi line also Kahles multizero is a nice idea for a hunting rig. I'm still thinking you need a scope with target knobs so you better jump on this before it gets away:
9096 Zeiss 4.5-14x44 Conquest 5214909920, Matte finish, Z plex reticle, 1" tube, fast focus eye piece, 1/4" moa target knobs, side focus, factory certified refurbished, light ring marks, lifetime transferable warranty. $828.00 $629.95
Likely you will need plus MOA rings look at the Burris Signature rings with the plastic inserts to add 20 moa.

Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - August/11/2008 at 13:16
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One more thing--could someone please explain the adjustable, resettable turret adjustments, or as Bushnell terms them, "push/pull turrets with resettable zero."  I couldn't find any elucidation of them on Bushnell's site.  Has anyone seen any technical information that I could read about what these do and how they work?  Thanks.
 
 -- HW
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The old style of 4200 4-16x40 turrets had a single screw on top you took off and lifted the turret dial off turned it to 0 then put it on and added the screw.  My guess is now you lift it turn it push it down but that may mean that you cant get Kenton knobs for it. See that Conquest from samplelist above.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/11/2008 at 13:23
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Ahh, I guess I should have looked for the caliber first, I just read your most recent post and went from there.  Sorry, my mind always thinks .308.

In that case you should be okay MOA wise, but I would still look at something with target turrets.  Alot of people seem to like this scope for a mid priced scope.
http://www.swfa.com/pc-12807-1395-millett-6-25x56-lrs-1-tactical-35mm-riflescope.aspx  But think the 6500 would be great as well.

I think why people don't recommend them for high recoiling rifles is because of the shorter eye relief than some other brands.  Recoil wise they are extremely durable, they are tested to 10,000 rounds of .375 H&H.  I have a Meopta on my 7mm and it only has 3" of eye relief and it works for me.  Of course mine is a semi-auto so that makes a diff on recoil.

As far as the 2.5-16x having a crappy image, I highly doubt that will be the case, there are tons of optics that have a wide magnification range that are still very crisp and good.  Where you will get into the bad images is when the power gets so high that the exit pupil of the scope starts getting smaller than the pupil in your eye. 

I personally I not a high power scope fan.  I have an IOR 3-18x but very seldom run it over 10x.  All of my hunting scopes are 3-9x and I have never felt under powered for any shot I have ever taken.


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Resettable target turrets mean that once you get your zero figured out you loosen a couple screws on the turret and then turn it so the dial shows zero.  The dials usually have 0-15 numbered on them with marks every 1/4 MOA and a number every MOA.  So once you set the dial on zero to match the zero of your gun then you can turn them for longer shots and then be able to turn them back to get back to your zero.

So say you have your gun zeroed at 100 yards.  So you have set your dials so they show zero.  You are going to take a shot that is 500 yards, and say you need 8 MOA up to reach that distance.  So you take your knob and turn it to 8 MOA.  Then on that shot you point of aim will be equal with your point of impact.  (assuming you have your data already figured out for that distance).  One the shot is done you can then turn the dial back to zero and you know where you are for your next shot. 

If you are trying to do that with hunting style turrets there are no markers to let you know how far you have gone and how far you need to go back to get to your zero.  You would have to count all the clicks and you would never be able to remember all that.
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Elite 4200 are good scopes and could serve you well.  Still, if this is for a long range/dual purpose set-up, I would seriously consider Elite 6500 2.5-16x40 or 2.5-16x50.  Both have a larger adjustment range (perhaps not necessary for your application, but why worry about it at all?) and resettable turrets are very user friendly.  I just got a 2.5-16x42 for review (another forum member kindly loaned me his scope for a couple of weeks) and it seems a very nice scope so far.  I will compare it against the following: Elite 4200, Vortex Viper and IOR 3-18x42.

ILya
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Elite 4200 are good scopes and could serve you well.  Still, if this is for a long range/dual purpose set-up, I would seriously consider Elite 6500 2.5-16x40 or 2.5-16x50.  Both have a larger adjustment range (perhaps not necessary for your application, but why worry about it at all?) and resettable turrets are very user friendly.  I just got a 2.5-16x42 for review (another forum member kindly loaned me his scope for a couple of weeks) and it seems a very nice scope so far.  I will compare it against the following: Elite 4200, Vortex Viper and IOR 3-18x42.

ILya


Can't wait to hear that review.  Glad you finally got a hold of one.
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That review will be mighty interesting to see.  The Vortex has also piqued my interest.  I'm just a little worried about a new company.  
 
The Elite 6500 2.5-16 seems to fit my specifications to a Tee (even has a mil-dot reticle as an option!).  Can anyone give me the pros and cons of a 40 mm vs. a 50 mm objective? 
 
 -- HW 
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At less than $500 you are going to have a very tough time getting optics that will perform the way you are asking for...But the above advice is very sound. Good luck
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