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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2015 at 18:50
koshkin View Drop Down
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Gentlemen, I need some sage council.
I am facing one of the hardest choices a gun nut can face: caliber selection:


ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2015 at 19:40
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depending on what your going to do with it, I may be called a heretic by friends but I would say 6.5 Grendel.

that's all I'm posting, my rifles are turning in their racks! 😂


Full disclosure: I own no rifles that are not a 30 cal. Derivative.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2015 at 19:41
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300 H&H...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2015 at 19:47
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That way I always have bullets usable for all cartridges in the stable.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2015 at 19:55
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I'm the dumbest guy I know and therefore don't get close to your "sage" request. What is your thinking about sticking with the .22-250 and opting for a fast twist barrel, to shoot long bullets? Of course, you could get better BC with larger calibers than .22.  I was going to suggest 260Rem, but you already have 6.5x47 and may want something with different thickness.
Nice platform, BTW.

I have a friend who had an AR platform .243. He didn't have it long, because he treated it like a standard AR- bang bang bang- and burned out the barrel right quick. Pitiful.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2015 at 20:04
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Originally posted by Steelbenz Steelbenz wrote:

depending on what your going to do with it, I may be called a heretic by friends but I would say 6.5 Grendel.

that's all I'm posting, my rifles are turning in their racks! 😂


Full disclosure: I own no rifles that are not a 30 cal. Derivative.


I already own a Grendel, but in a semi-auto.  I did not think about a boltgun Grendel.  I think magazines would be an issue with that.  The McRee chassis takes AICS magazines and I am pretty sure they do not have one for the Grendel.

I would also need a new bolthead, but that is manageable.

As far as full disclosure goes, only 10% of my rifles are 30cal and that percentage is likely to go down.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2015 at 20:05
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Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

300 H&H...

I doubt I'll manage to fit it into a short action Savage.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2015 at 20:10
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Originally posted by Alan Robertson Alan Robertson wrote:

I'm the dumbest guy I know and therefore don't get close to your "sage" request. What is your thinking about sticking with the .22-250 and opting for a fast twist barrel, to shoot long bullets? Of course, you could get better BC with larger calibers than .22.  I was going to suggest 260Rem, but you already have 6.5x47 and may want something with different thickness.
Nice platform, BTW.

I have a friend who had an AR platform .243. He didn't have it long, because he treated it like a standard AR- bang bang bang- and burned out the barrel right quick. Pitiful.

I feel like getting a short barrel and I am not sure 22-250 is going to work well in it.  It is a pretty overbore cartridge.  I am not sure I can push it fast enough in a 16" barrel for it to make sense.  

Also, I am not sure I like the barrel life it will give me.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2015 at 20:40
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Interesting.

Will think about it for awhile.

Purely range gun? Long range is the key?

It will be hard to find something that comes close to competing with the 6.5x47 in that regard.  There is always 6x47, but that is a flavor change.


What is the #1 priority for this gun, and how does that priority differ from your 30-cals and your 6.5x47?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2015 at 20:41
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How short are you planning on going on the barrel? A 7-08, pushing something like 162gr AMAX or 168gr SMK, at about 2500 or 2600 fps is going to spank a 308... The biggest problem is going to be bullet availability. But even lighter bullets, such as a 140gr game kings, will do really well.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2015 at 20:57
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Interesting.

Will think about it for awhile.

Purely range gun? Long range is the key?

It will be hard to find something that comes close to competing with the 6.5x47 in that regard.  There is always 6x47, but that is a flavor change.


What is the #1 priority for this gun, and how does that priority differ from your 30-cals and your 6.5x47?

#1 priority is precision and efficiency in a short barrel. I can tune the muzzle blast with powder choices to a certain degree, but I do not like loud guns.

I still have my DTA SRS with 338LM and 6.5x47L barrels for the situations when I really want long distance.

I am mostly playing with the Savage because I can and because I want to screw around with an aftermarket chassis.  It is also a much cheaper way to mess with different cartridges: a new barrel for the DTA is more than $1k.  

A new nice barrel for the Savage if I want to mess with something new is half that (and often less).

However, with the DTA being a bullpup, I have developed a lot of appreciation for compact rifles.  They are easily maneuverable and fit into a very compact case.  Hence the McRee chassis with a folding stock and a short barrel.

Most of the shooting I do is within 700 yards.  I do not get to go beyond that as often as I'd like.  However, I do run into considerable wind with reasonable regularity.

Living in California, I will not be able to use a suppressor vast majority of the time: only when I go out of state.

Another reason I want to set the Savage up is to have a platform I can use if I want to come up with some really screwy wildcat.

For example, every once in a while I consider taking something like a 30 AR round and necking it up to use those freakishly long bullets for some serious subsonic performance.  Something like this:

ILya


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2015 at 20:57
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Originally posted by billyburl2 billyburl2 wrote:

How short are you planning on going on the barrel? A 7-08, pushing something like 162gr AMAX or 168gr SMK, at about 2500 or 2600 fps is going to spank a 308... The biggest problem is going to be bullet availability. But even lighter bullets, such as a 140gr game kings, will do really well.

Ideally, I want the barrel to be just over 16", i.e. as short as I can without breaking any laws.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2015 at 22:03
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Been talkin with a customer who is considerin havin me build a 22-250. His goal is a tack driver out to 600yds. I hope he pulls the trigger on it because I'd enjoy workin the loads for it and getting it done. That said, based on the research I've done you might consider goin 243 with a 1-9 twist and loadin 90gr pills. With your 16" barrel keeping the muzzle around .750+ the weight won't be an issue and you can probably still manage 2800-2900fps depending on which powder you prefer. With the 1-9 twist you have some play room if you want to go up or down on bullet weight but I suspect the 90 will be your best performer. With the 22-250 90 will be top of your options and would keep your velocity around 2600-2700fps which isn't terrible but you would probably be building compressed loads to get there. The 243 you can go from 60gr to 115 which will help you if you should ever want to stretch out to 1K.

Some food for thought. look forward to hearin what you settle on..............

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2015 at 22:35
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243 is an interesting option. I do not have a 6mm, so that could work. I wonder though if a slightly shorter case would work better with the short barrel. If there were good 25 caliber bullets out there 250 Savage improved would have been perfect.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2015 at 23:14
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.25 Winchester Super Short Magnum

Lookin for a challenge?????????????

Wonder why they didn't use a 270WSM? Must not have been around back then..........

Got some real impressive ballistics!!! 87gr Berger showin 3415fps with 43.5 gr RE-15 at 94% case capacity.


Parent case

.300 WSM

Bullet diameter

.257 in (6.5 mm)

Neck diameter

.305 in (7.7 mm)

Shoulder diameter

.544 in (13.8 mm)

Base diameter

.555 in (14.1 mm)

Rim diameter

.535 in (13.6 mm)

Rim thickness

.054 in (1.4 mm)

Case length

1.670 in (42.4 mm)

Overall length

2.36 in (60 mm)

Primer type

large rifle


It is a necked-up version of the .243 WSSM,[1] which is in turn a shortened .300 WSM (Winchester Short Magnum). The WSSM cartridges are based on ballistics design philosophies that are intended to produce a high level of efficiency.[2]

Like other WSSM cases, the .25 is short and fat, which is designed to be more efficient. However, short fat cases with an abruptly angled shoulder and have been criticized by some as being difficult to feed properly in some rifles.[3]

Unlike the other WSSM rounds, the .25 is a magnum in name only, based on the case it uses. Performance wise it is a clone of the .25-06 Remington, making it well suited for medium to large game.[4] The 25 WSSM provides the same performance as the 25-06 Remington, with the advantage of having lighter short action rifles. Having the short fat design, the cartridge loads burn at a more consistent rate, providing a higher level of accuracy. Performance is far less than other .25 caliber magnum rounds as the .257 Weatherby Magnum. In fact, ballistically it's almost identical to the improved version of the .257 Roberts, which P.O. Ackley said was his favorite choice for an all-around cartridge.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2015 at 01:08
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

I already own a Grendel, but in a semi-auto.  I did not think about a boltgun Grendel.  I think magazines would be an issue with that.  The McRee chassis takes AICS magazines and I am pretty sure they do not have one for the Grendel.

I would also need a new bolthead, but that is manageable.

ILya


Isn't the 6.5 Grendel the same length as a 223? And I know AICS makes magazines for the 223.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2015 at 06:21
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My first thought after reading your post was a .243 Win. Lot's of advantages. Lapua brass, that you like, and a ton of bullets to choice from. Or, you can get a little exotic and a touch more velocity and go with the .243 AI.  
6mm is a great choice. Check out 6mm BR site for more intel. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2015 at 08:44
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Sparky, Grendel is the same length as 223, but different diameter, so making it feed from AICS mags is not a trivial exercise, but I will look into that.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2015 at 09:19
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The issue with 243 (and I agree, if you go 243, go 243AI), is barrel length, same with a 260.  Much as you don't really want a 300WM with a 18" barrel, I don't see how a 243 with a 16" barrel would do what you want.  Maybe with some very interesting load tuning.

I have a 243AI, I love it, awesome accuracy, great wind bucking, and very mild recoil.  Add to that great bullet selection, and you really have something.  But barrel length...

If you are set on a 16" barrel, I too would go the route of big bullet at subsonic speeds.  With what you have and what you want from it, that'd be the route I take.  A 243 is very similar to a 6x47, and you have a 6.5x47, so it isn't a significant difference.  I'd look to a new setup, new application, something with no overlap with what you already own.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2015 at 10:58
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If you could manage with a 20'barrel and still fit your goals your options would open up alittle. But if you set your max distance at 500-600yds and want your terminal velocity to be 1100fps + you probably should stick with a minimum bullet wt. of 65gr. Berger shows its 65gr match bt with muzzle velocity of 3000fps reachin 600yds at around 1280fps. That is figured with a 20" barrel. With a 16" barrel you can shave off maybe another 200fps. That is based on .243 ballistics.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2015 at 11:27
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

The issue with 243 (and I agree, if you go 243, go 243AI), is barrel length, same with a 260.  Much as you don't really want a 300WM with a 18" barrel, I don't see how a 243 with a 16" barrel would do what you want.  Maybe with some very interesting load tuning.

I have a 243AI, I love it, awesome accuracy, great wind bucking, and very mild recoil.  Add to that great bullet selection, and you really have something.  But barrel length...

If you are set on a 16" barrel, I too would go the route of big bullet at subsonic speeds.  With what you have and what you want from it, that'd be the route I take.  A 243 is very similar to a 6x47, and you have a 6.5x47, so it isn't a significant difference.  I'd look to a new setup, new application, something with no overlap with what you already own.

That sounds reasonable, RC.

Maybe I should dream up a wildcat or simply go with 458SOCOM.  It has the same head diameter as 308Win, so the bolt will work.  It is a larger diameter case than 308 though, so mags might need modification.

Lehigh makes match grade 458 bullets and with a 308 length action, I am not limited by the overall length of the cartridge like I am in an AR.

I suppose all I need is a fast twist barrel and someone willing to chamber it for 458SOCOM.

That definitely sounds like a fun project.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2015 at 11:53
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

300 H&H...

I doubt I'll manage to fit it into a short action Savage.

ILya

Be creative...


The 243WSSM is a really nice round, but like RC said, you already have something pretty close and I'm hearing brass is hard to find.  I really don't understand the 16" barrel for a bolt gun, but guess it could be interesting.  260 is supposed to be "one of the best" for accuracy, but I like Billy's suggestion of 7mm-08 better.  I really like the -08 for all around utility and a pretty good selection of bullets.  I know it works well in shorter barreled rifles and there is something in its bullet selection that will be a good "fit".  Lots of flexibility there...

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2015 at 11:53
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Look at Alpha mags, they should give you a bit more length than the AICS (but work in rifles/chassis designed for AICS.)  I am not sure how they do with 458 rounds, never messed with that caliber at all.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2015 at 12:02
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Look at Alpha mags, they should give you a bit more length than the AICS (but work in rifles/chassis designed for AICS.)  I am not sure how they do with 458 rounds, never messed with that caliber at all.

I have a 458 SOCOM AR, which I am very fond of.

With AR-15 mag limitations, you can only use short fat bullets, so I even considered playing with single loading long pointy bullets at subsonic speeds.  

The Savage would make a much better platform for that, though.

ILya
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What about .284 Win or 6.5x284 Norma?  Your bolt face would work with it, and it would give you more reach than a 7mm-08.  Another option would be the 7mm WSM.  Any of these would give you better burn in the shorter barrel than standard mag calibers, and as long as you don't go off the deep end with long bullets, it could work.

My next build will probably be a striker or XP in 7mmWSM or .284.  I love the 7mm SD and bullet selection.  Good luck.  Sounds like a fun project.
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