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Need help with FFP, SFP

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/10/2006 at 20:14
82abnnotasniper View Drop Down
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Go ahead, fire away, I screwed-up.

I wanted this scope;
Leupold 8.5-25x50 Mark 4 LR/T 30mm Riflescope, Matte
Illuminated Tactical Milling Reticle, Side Focus, M1 Target Knobs
SWFA: $1,379.95

This scope was within my price range, has everything I was looking for, would be a great start for a GAP, would be great at McMillan, and is FFP. NOT! Thanks to several PM's from someone who was willing to put-up with my rants on the 'hide', he informed me that the scope I wanted was indeed SFP.

Now what?
I need options other than burning my wallet for a USO or S&B. Sure I would like one of these optic 'gems', but the money is out of the question for now. What other options fall within my wish list for less than $1,500?

I'm ready for incoming,,
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/11/2006 at 03:02
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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82nd:

I'm not quite sure I'm following you......

You WILL spend up to $1379.95 on a scope, but NOT $1500 to get something you REALLY want??

 Right??

 

As a matter of fact, I sold a SN-3 3.2-17x44mm on Sniper's Hide for right around $1500 out the door and threw in a set of Badger rings to boot.

So they can be had AROUND your price range.

 

What about SWFA's EXOTIC scope when it comes out?? 

That will be a nice scope with a 50mm objective and it will be a FFP reticle.

 

Take care........

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/11/2006 at 05:22
82abnnotasniper View Drop Down
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I was looking at 'new' scopes in that price range.
Used is an option I will look into today.

And yes, Exotic is also an option next year?

Thanks.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/11/2006 at 08:26
Mike McDonald View Drop Down
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I wouldn't even consider a USO if you can get into a S&B for the same money.
Leupold makes no scopes that are FFP, at least not to date.  Having those big mils staring at you in that 8.5-25 and not being able to use them even for windage hold offs at anything but 25x is worthless.

You might even consider the MkIV M1 16x.  Not too much magnification, over 100 moa adjustment, reliable, bright enough to shoot in legal light.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/11/2006 at 09:15
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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Leo makes two scopes ffp the LRT 3.5x10 in M1 and M3. Notice the power is only to 10. If one thinks about it a min. it makes a lot of sense, If the reticle is enlarged when increasing the power, and it's already too large on 10x (at least for my liking) think how big that mothers going to be on 25-32x. this is the same reason Nightforce doesn't use ffp on their higher magnification. (come to think of it I'm not sure if the even make an FFP-have to check). Curious however, if you are using TMR why would you want FFP? (to say nothing of the illum. reticle's advantage in the low light) You already have more control over the target than Mil-dot?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/11/2006 at 13:27
Mike McDonald View Drop Down
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FFP has advantages in a tactical  application, where the idea is keep everything as simple as possible.  Removing the need to have a scope set on "X" mag value removes a screw up.  It also removes the need to have the scope columated to assure the mil value is accurate at" X" setting.  Mil scopes were generally used prior to civilian purchase for high intensity situations where adrenilan dump screws up ability to think.

Mils are also not tied to a ballistic chart making them universal.  Reticles that assume a drop chart tend to be confusing. 

Nightforce could double their sales with a FFP reticle system.  Right now competitive shooters are willing to pay $2700.00 for a FFP schmidt bender.  They'd be just as happy paying $1400.00 for a NF scope with FFP and 15 moa per rev on the elev turret.

Illum reticles a re great for visualizing hte reticle but much like tritium sights they do an excellent job of making a target invisible in a low light situation.  Your eyes work against you  in this application and F stop down to compensate for the brightest object in view.
If the brightest object is your reticle, your eyes will viualize it with amazing clarity.  You'll just wonder where the target went.
NV scope are made for low light situations.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/11/2006 at 14:18
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Well said, Mike. Good facts there.

 

Well, all except this comment:

"I wouldn't even consider a USO if you can get into a S&B for the same money."

 

Dales right too, Leupold does in fact make a few FFP reticle scopes.

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/11/2006 at 14:45
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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I think that is the secret word here-military use. I doubt if 1 out of 100 people reading this forum are "military or police use" and are being confused. No doubt physiological factors play different parts, however for every state ligitimized target contact there will be 1000's of rounds shot at targets and paper punching and just havin' fun. FFP reticles are only used in certain types of competitive events, and as their numbers grow, other scope makers will meet their demands, (probably MOA reticle however) if the nature of the event allows the gamers to have more say than the martial arts fans. Military and police need and use are determined by a myriad of factors, not the least are department policy, local political flavor, ease use of use for many users (Mikes point) and shouldn't influence civilian sporting use of fireams. The point is if one is not limited by these then why limit oneself.

Ambient backround light has more to do with target acquisition than reticles, lit or not, in that it provides the contrast (brightness) to make the shot.

Mike i am confused on the tritium part, if one is watching the front site as supposedly correct technique, why would it matter?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/11/2006 at 15:00
Mike McDonald View Drop Down
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Mike i am confused on the tritium part, if one is watching the front site as supposedly correct technique, why would it matter?

Dale,
I live around a tactical training environment quite a few hours each year.  We've found some interesting things.
As you note, eyes belong on the front sight.  With trit sights, the illumination is overpowering and washes out the target portion of the sight picture.    On my own pistols, I try to by end of life trit sights and waive the warranty on such, just so I will have a front sight reference but not have an overpowering front sight reference. 

This does not attempt to address the need for clear target ID through superior iluumination of the target itself, using something like a surefire light for that purpose.  I strongly encourage anyone with a handgun to get a surefire and practice lowlight/nolight operations
if the purpose of the handgun is defense.  Same goes for trit sights on shotguns. get a light.l

On the mil thing, and the ffp thing, if one takes responsibility for knowing their gear ( 1 of 1000 do this )  then any reticle works for them as they subconsciously manufacture a ballistics chart correspond to their reticle subtensions.
I like the mil system and can use, and do really like the moa reticle system since both are known values, can be used for distance measurment, windage holds, and hold over/under compensation while having a known reference point.  Which is why I like FFP reticles, since as mentioned they're made for a high intensity environment, such as hunting  :)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/11/2006 at 19:48
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Do you guys know if the IOR scopes are FFP?

IOR936X56TILLMP8L IOR 9-36x56 Tactical 35mm Rifle Scope IOR 9-36x56 Tactical 35mm Rifle Scope
  • Matte
  • Illuminated MP-8
  • 35mm
  • Side Focus
  • Free 35mm Low Rings w/ Purchase
SWFA: $1,439.95

 

:

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/11/2006 at 20:14
82abnnotasniper View Drop Down
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Thanks for the information.

FFP or SFP is not listed in most scope descriptions. I searched IOR and several other brands, and their websites, and don't always find the answer. That's what I would like more help with.

Is FFP just offered currently on the 'high end' models?
What brands offer FFP and what do you recommend?

Thanks.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/11/2006 at 23:55
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For me anyway I like the 8.5 -25x50 illuminated mil dot Mark 4 that I own even without FFP. I range things with a laser rangefinder so it would work for me with any reticle so long as I could dial in the correction for wind and trajectory (I'm not trying to hit the target until it stops moving). If the TMR reticle had been available when I bought this scope I would have bought it. I do notice that it is easier for me to get a good cheekweld with my 10x40 Mark 4 M3 than with the 50mm. You might really like the 3.5-10FFP Mark 4. I could get by with my 3-9x40 PR duplex if I had to. The other thing that I will say is that  a 4.5-14 is a better choice most of the time than the higher power. The US Optics SN3 is probably the perfect scope or possibly a S&B but  I'm happy with the Leupold Mark 4 scopes I have and I really like the Super Sniper scope I have, so I just ordered a second one. I suggest you buy a Super Sniper 10x and use it while you save up for the S&B or the US Optics. You may find that you can spend the rest of the money on cold beer and hot steaks.

 

The more I use my Mark 4 10x M3 scope the more I like it.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/12/2006 at 03:19
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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I have owned 2 IOR's.

One was a lit FFP w/ MP8 and the other was a standard RFP MP8.

 

IOR used to make FFP scopes, but lately I think they are mostly, if not all RFP.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/12/2006 at 03:30
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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82ABN:

Here's the deal on a FFP scope. They just flat out cost more to build.

USO, S&B, Zeiss, Swaro, (Shepherd is actually both), etc.

 

I like what Ufriend suggested.

Get a 10x SS "for now" and start shooting. That's what I'm doing.

 

Save up your coin for a Schmidt or USO or whatever.

You can always sell your SS for near full list on Sniper's Hide.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/12/2006 at 07:04
Mike McDonald View Drop Down
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Here's the deal on a FFP scope. They just flat out cost more to build.

Nope, reticle just changes location inside the tube.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/12/2006 at 09:24
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You can step down in power and go with the Leupold LR/T 3.5-10x40.  Get in line.

 

You can step down in price and go with the Barska Tactical.    What's that you say???  Barska Tactical???  Oxy what????

 

We can special order ya an IOR 3-18x42 FFP.....maybe, depends on if Val has any laying around.  He used to be all FFP but too many people complained, so they redesigned them at a great cost to them and now everyone wants FFP. 

 

Or you can wait until next year and get a XOTIC 5-20x50.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/12/2006 at 14:09
David View Drop Down
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The only scope IOR offers with a FFP is a 2.5-10X42 Tactical w/Illuminated MP8 reticle.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/12/2006 at 15:28
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Mike McDonald Mike McDonald wrote:

Here's the deal on a FFP scope. They just flat out cost more to build.

Nope, reticle just changes location inside the tube.

 

Mike, I "thought" that I had read online somewhere that the mechanics involved with FFP scopes drove the price up.

Add to the fact that most all FFP scopes are pricey, at best, seemed to solidify my belief.

 

I stand corrected.

 

Here's a link to USO's website in which FFP reticles are explained in fairly simple terms.

I doubt anything on here hasn't already been covered in this thread, but here goes.

 

http://usoptics.com/sub_pages/reticles.php

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/12/2006 at 20:51
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"Reticle placed at first focal plane"  http://horusvision.com/pr_op_scopefeatures.cfm

 

http://horusvision.com/hv.cfm?pg=h25

 

This is another option.

Stay Safe.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/12/2006 at 21:29
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Make sure it's not raining outside when you take that horus to the range.  They kinda fog up, at least until they fill completely with water then the image gets better.......................if you don't mind looking through water  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/13/2006 at 06:34
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Nice reticle they put into that U.S. Optics SN3 though isn't it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/13/2006 at 10:38
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SN3 with it's reticle (Horus) should be nice for that price, but if it 'sinks' when it rains, I guess the PDA and software sink also?

I'll stay with the 10x SS and Burris till I have the cash, then buy the FFP I'm looking for.

Thanks for the recommendations and advice.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/13/2006 at 13:36
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Best of luck, 82ABN.

 

Keep us in the loop on your impressions of the SS.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/13/2006 at 18:13
82abnnotasniper View Drop Down
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Thanks cheaptrick.

I'll let you know what I buy, later this year.
Until then I'll try to figure out why I'm milling in Mils, and adjusting in MOA, or is that SMOA, or TMOA,,

Thanks,
Jim
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/16/2006 at 20:44
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The beauty of the 10x fixed power scopes is that the FFP thing is just not an issue.
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