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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2015 at 13:05
JimFromTN View Drop Down
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This was a brand new un-fired piece of brass. The load was 2 grains less than the max recommended load according to Hogden. The load was

300 win Mag
200 gr Nosler Partition
70 gr H4831
Winchester large rifle magnum primer

The bullet is seated .04 off of the lands.

According to the Hogden Manual, the max load is 72 gr H4831 using a winchester large rifle magnum primer.
According to Nosler the max load is 71.5 gr H4831 with a Fed 215 primer. The Nosler guide groups Accubonds and partitions together. The Hogden guide seperates them and says the max load for the accubond is 71.5 gr.

I am wondering if I should back up from a magnum primer to a large rifle primer. This is making a mess of my bolt face.




Edited by JimFromTN - February/14/2015 at 13:16
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/14/2015 at 19:47
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Did you start at 67 and work your way up or did you start at Max load. Not all rifles can handle max load because of variances in cambering. If you worked up to max, at what point did the primers start to blow out.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2015 at 11:17
JimFromTN View Drop Down
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They started to blow out at 68.5 grains which is 2 grains less than the max according to nosler and 2.5 grains below max according to Hogden.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2015 at 12:00
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 There are so many variables. Did you do any prep to the primer pocket. Did you crony the velocity. Do you have a crony If not get one. The one thing for sure is that you do not want to shoot any more of these shells. Take any remaining, break them down and verify that each component is what it was supposed to be. Test your scale to verify its accuracy. Verify your powder. I know a man that stopped in the middle of a session and when he came back and changed his powder mistakenly pored it into a different container. The mix was not healthy. When you suspect a problem stop and start over. Label everything you do. If you put powder in the dispenser, Put a label on it. Bullets in a tray Label it. Keep a log and record all your weights and measurements. The key to successful reloading is to be meticulous.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2015 at 12:30
JimFromTN View Drop Down
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I don't have a chrony but it was brand new brass and I bought the powder a couple of weeks ago so nothing is miss labelled.  I weighed the bullets to make sure they were not mislabelled from nosler and they weighed ok so I think my scale is ok.

I hate to do it but I may go buy some factory ammo and make sure it does not happen with the commercial stuff.  If it does then its not the load and I need to look at the rifle.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2015 at 13:08
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Can you take a better picture of the brass? I think there are clues that cannot be resolved in that picture. A better picture will help.

In the end, it could be brass or recipe or rifle - or some combination.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2015 at 13:09
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For clarity: brand new rifle, brand new brass, brand new components?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2015 at 13:57
JimFromTN View Drop Down
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Brand new brass and components.  Rifle has somewhere around 1000 rds thru the barrel.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2015 at 17:41
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What brand of brass? I have read where some have complained about bad batches coming out of Remington recently.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2015 at 18:12
JimFromTN View Drop Down
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Both Privi partison and remington have had the issue.  

I went to the range today and bought some remington corelokts.  I also brought some target loads which I have shot hundreds of in the past with no issues.  I shot every coreloct without a single issue.  I shot 5 of the target loads and the 5th one blew the primer.  There were 2 commonalities between the target loads and the hunting loads.  The first was the primer (winchester large rifle magnum primers)and the 2nd was the temperature.   I have been to the range 3 times now where the primers blew and all 3 times the temperature was in the 20's.  Could the temperature be causing a spike in pressure when using the winchester primers?  I bought some CCI 250's which I will try next. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2015 at 09:22
pyro6999 View Drop Down
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according to the online data on noslers webpage 70.5gr of h-4831 is max.... I would strongly suggest you dont go to a standard larger rifle primer either.  Does the rifle's bolt require extra effort to close before firing??

I have been shooting magnums most of my life in temps colder than 20 degrees and ive never had a magnum of any caliber do that to a case head. I have seen that in the .22-250 a few times when the loads were a bit to warm. Im gonna go ahead and guess that you will be seeing this same result no matter which primer you try. Im thinking you may want to back off the loads and maybe even consider changing the depth you seat your bullets to.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2015 at 09:47
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[QUOTE=pyro6999]Im thinking you may want to...consider changing the depth you seat your bullets to.
[/QUOTE

That was my first thought as well. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2015 at 10:12
JimFromTN View Drop Down
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Hogden seperates accubonds from partitions where as nosler groups them together.

I blew primers with 68.5 grains of h4831. I purchased unfired brass last weekend which the primers blew in as well as some brass that had been fired maybe 3 times before the primer blew. The target load that blew a primer was a nosler 190gr custom competition which was loaded with 70.6gr of RL-22, using a winchester large rifle magnum primer. I have fired over 200 of those target rounds before this happened. For R-22, nosler says the min is 69.5 and the max is 73.5.The seating depth was even further off of the lands.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2015 at 10:18
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Have you measured how far your factory loads are seated off the lands?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2015 at 10:38
JimFromTN View Drop Down
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Unfortunately, I shot up the entire box and did not measure them.  I assume they were spec where the OACL was 3.340.  The target loads that I loaded are 3.489.  Like I said about the target loads, I have shot over 200, probably closer to 300, of these without a single issue.  The hunting loads are 3.58 which is .046 off of the lands.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2015 at 13:18
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If the primer failed at the cup radius as it looks like in the pic, then this has been an intermittent issue with WLR and WLRM's for the past few years or so.There are a few threads at the CMP forums concerning this issue.Contact Winchester and ask them to take back your remaining primers and pay for a new bolt for your rlfle.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2015 at 13:46
JimFromTN View Drop Down
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I believe you are right.  I looked at the pictures of the primers that people are posting and they look the same.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2015 at 15:04
Alan Robertson View Drop Down
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in re Winchester primers: Thanks for the heads up.
I've not had any issues with WLR or M primers, but haven't loaded anything "hot" with them since buying an available large stock and now have too large a stock to not use them up. Count on them only being used for low pressure apps.
All my Win pistol primers of all flavors have never been a problem, but they are all far from rifle pressure.
>>>I've quit using Win small rifle primers at all, as I had pierced primers with AR loads between SAAMI and Nato spec pressure, at what I figured would be around 55- 56K psi. No other pressure signs were evident and I've found that there is a lot of talk on the net about this issue, which is caused by too thin/soft primer cups. I never had an issue with their old nickel plated primers in any rifle.
From what others have told me, Winchester is aware of their primer problems and have quietly been fixing guns damaged by their primer issues, without publicly making statements (or changing their cups, so far.)
I've not had any issues at all with any flavor CCI small rifle primer or Federal 205 or 205Ms.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2015 at 16:25
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Originally posted by JimFromTN JimFromTN wrote:

Hogden seperates accubonds from partitions where as nosler groups them together.

I blew primers with 68.5 grains of h4831. I purchased unfired brass last weekend which the primers blew in as well as some brass that had been fired maybe 3 times before the primer blew. The target load that blew a primer was a nosler 190gr custom competition which was loaded with 70.6gr of RL-22, using a winchester large rifle magnum primer. I have fired over 200 of those target rounds before this happened. For R-22, nosler says the min is 69.5 and the max is 73.5.The seating depth was even further off of the lands.




rl-22 is not h4831, so making any comparison is a moot point, they each will act different. My point was that this is a pressure related issue, and for your safety i recommended backing off until the problem was pinpointed.... If there is a known issue with winchester's primers then i would probably stop using them.
here is the data straight from noslers webpage which they grouped the partition and the accubond together....

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5163436ce4b0b470bd1fbb00/t/51ba2b75e4b03a11938d4558/1371155317785/300-Win-Mag-200gr-Version+7.0.pdf
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2015 at 19:44
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Originally posted by Alan Robertson Alan Robertson wrote:

in re Winchester primers: Thanks for the heads up.
I've not had any issues with WLR or M primers, but haven't loaded anything "hot" with them since buying an available large stock and now have too large a stock to not use them up. Count on them only being used for low pressure apps.
All my Win pistol primers of all flavors have never been a problem, but they are all far from rifle pressure.
>>>I've quit using Win small rifle primers at all, as I had pierced primers with AR loads between SAAMI and Nato spec pressure, at what I figured would be around 55- 56K psi. No other pressure signs were evident and I've found that there is a lot of talk on the net about this issue, which is caused by too thin/soft primer cups. I never had an issue with their old nickel plated primers in any rifle.
From what others have told me, Winchester is aware of their primer problems and have quietly been fixing guns damaged by their primer issues, without publicly making statements (or changing their cups, so far.)
I've not had any issues at all with any flavor CCI small rifle primer or Federal 205 or 205Ms.
This doesn't really have anything to do with loading hot.It is a primer issue.When we load for the Garand we are in the middle of the load range as the oprod won't tolerate bolt gun loads.I've had multiple failures in 30.06 that ruined the bolt in my competition rifle and also 6.5 swede. I also ruined 2 firing pins in my Nat. match AR before I was clued in about not using WSR's in upper end loads of Varget that we use in highpower XTC.This has only appeared with the new style blue box primers.All the older competitors I know say this never happened with the old white box primers.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/17/2015 at 12:57
JimFromTN View Drop Down
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Pyro, I was not comparing RL-22 to H4831.  I printed the chart for the very reason you stated and I put at the very top of that entry.  Nosler groups accubond and partitions together where as Hogden seperates them and puts the max for a partition a half a grain higher.  The reason I brought up RL-22 was because I had the same results using it and the winchester primers on lighter target loads.

I reported the issue to winchester.  We will see what they do.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2015 at 07:06
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You really need to start at starting loads for Nosler data.  My Rem. 700 Classic 8mm RM showed pressure signs with R-22, WMR primer and a 180g NBT when I was 3.5 grains below max.  My chrony was showing 3500 fps!  Max charge was only supposed to get to about 3260 or 3270.  I asked around and this was not uncommon.  Same load is still in the Nosler manual.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/08/2015 at 23:35
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I bought some CCI 250 primers and loaded up some rounds.  My reloads ranged from the 66.5gr up to the 70.5 in half grain increments.  I loaded up 4 of each.  I went to the range today.  I had no burnt primers and had absolutely no pressure signs even out of the max loads.  

I contacted Winchester thru their website and I have not heard anything from them.  Is there some better way to contact them?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/12/2015 at 23:51
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Were the Winchester magnum primers easy to seat ? Are you getting a hard bolt lift with the loads that were blowing primers ? Don't drop to standard primers. Cold temps will decrease velocity (pressure) not increase it. In my 300 Win Mag, I load 76 grns of H4831sc with 180 grn Nosler BT's and I get no sign's whatsoever of excessive pressure. I'm using Federal 215's. The worst brass (case life wise) I've ever used in my 300 was Remington.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/12/2015 at 21:11
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Could excessive headspace be your problem?
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