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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2006 at 12:32
justingeen99 View Drop Down
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I currently have a Mueller Tac II with tactical turrets on my Remington 700 pss in .308. I like the scope, but I would like more magnification (around 14-16 power. I have compared the Tac II to my buddyís Burris full field II and Sheppard. Both went up to 10 power, but the Burris has a 50mm tube and the Sheppard had a 42mm. The Tac II was better than the Burris and equal to the Sheppard except in low light the Sheppard was better.

I have been doing a lot of reading on this page and was going to get the 16X42 SS. However, the more reading I do, it seems that a variable scope would serve me better. Here is what I want: a scope that is in the 300-400 dollar range, range finding reticle, as good as glass as my tac II, power variable with at least 14, something that I would be able to use for duty, be able to shoot out to 1000 yards, 1/4 adjustments, 30 mm if possible, tactical turrets, and not last but least if I had to use it in a pinch for hunting I could (which is why I want variable). I plan to use it for tactical shoots and would like it to be durable for this type of application.

I may be asking for to much in the price range I set, but that is all I have been able to scrape up over the past few months. I would love to have Night Force or an IOR, but those arenít not in the cards for me at this point. Maybe 5 or 10 years down the road.

Some of the options I was looking at, but donít seem to meet all of my needs:

Weaver classic 6-24X42 mil dot
Bushnell elite 4200 6-24x40 mil dot
sightron II 6.5-20x50 mil dot or 4.5-14x44 mil dot
Nikon Buck Master 4.5-14x40 mil dot
Nikon Monarc 6.5-20x44 adjustable objective mil dot
Burris full field II 6.5-20X50 mil dot
Millett tps 4-16x50 mil dot (from what I have read this is crap)

These are in my price range, but I have no idea which one would work for me, if any. I also don't know if these are true tactical scopes or are hunting scopes with mil dots. Can they do the box test or are they repeatable. I am open to suggestions, I need help this is frustrating. In reality it seams that I am looking for a SS that is variable power assuming the glass is as good as the Tac II.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2006 at 12:39
Trinidad View Drop Down
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Out of all the scopes listed the optical advatage goes to the 4200 second choice would be the Monarch.

With Burris you will have to upgrade to the signature series the 4-16x44 is very nice with the ballistic mil-dot.

Millet and Weaver is crap IMO, Sightron is pretty good but not to the level of the above listed.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/01/2006 at 10:25
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What SVD said.

 

ranburr

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/01/2006 at 12:43
koshkin View Drop Down
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I agree with SVD for the most part, except I think that Sightron S2 has better W/E adjustments than all of the scopes above and glass about on par with Monarch and very slightly below Elite4200 and Signature Select.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/01/2006 at 20:01
justingeen99 View Drop Down
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Ok guys good info. Keep it coming. Could some of you address some of the other issues I brought up (in post above)?     I know glass clarity is important, but if the scope doesn't meet some needs of a tactical application, the scope will not work that good for me.

I may be mistaking, after all I am under the impression that my Tac II has good optics. Also I am new to the tactical shooting world and long distance shooting. I grew up with iron sights and one old 3x9 Redfield (a great scope, but no longer have it).   
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/01/2006 at 20:28
koshkin View Drop Down
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To be honest, I would not get too bogged down with features if you are on a budget. 

The scopes mentioned above all have 1" tubes.  If you are looking for versatility and long range performance, most 6-24x or thereabaouts scopes with 1" tubes do not have a whole lot of adjustment range, so If you want to shoot out to 1000yards, I would suggest sticking with 4-16x or similar.  For hunting use, 4-16x also offers a bit more versatility with a 4x low end.

Bushnell Elite 4200 4-16x40 is not available with the MilDot and has an adjustment range of 40" at 100 yards.
Burris Signature Select 4-16x44 is available with a similar Ballistic MilDot and has an adjustment range of 32" at 100yards
Nikon Monarch 5.5-16.5 is not available with the MilDot reticle and has an adjustment range of 40" at 100 yards

Sightron S2 4-16x42 is available with the MilDot and has an adjustment range of 56" at 100yards
Sightron S2 4.5-14x44 is available with the MilDot and has an adjustment range of 58" at 100 yards

All of the scopes above are durable and have better glass than Tac II (which is a pretty decent scope by the way with glass in between the scopes above and Fullfield II). 
All of the scopes above have finger adjustable turrets (under the caps, though).

I'd go with one of the Sightrons for your applicaiton.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2006 at 02:40
justingeen99 View Drop Down
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Thanks Koshkin, that was very helpful. I will look at the Sightorns a bit more. My question on the Sightron is on sniper country, they indicated that the mils were off, can you confirm this? If this is not so, I will probably get one.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2006 at 02:45
koshkin View Drop Down
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I am not sure what is meant with "mils were off", but with any variable scope with the reticle in the second focal plane, you want to confirm at which exact magnification the dot spacing is correct.  It can easily be the intended magnification plus/minus 0.25x due to manufacturing tolerances.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2006 at 07:17
justingeen99 View Drop Down
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Koshkin,

According to this review found at http://www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/Sightron_SII.asp
they say that the mil dots on the sightron is not the standard mil dot system. I would attempt to explain it, but the review does much better than I could.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2006 at 11:56
koshkin View Drop Down
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It seems like they are saying that the dot size is incorrect on Sightrons.  Dot spacing is correct at highest magnification, to the best of my knowledge.  What you should do is go to www.sightron.com and look at the scopes you are interested in.  They give reticle dimensions there, so you can see if that is something you are comfortable using.  It looks like the dimensions are as follows:

4-16x42MD:
Min Power
Reticle Dimensions
* all measurements in inches (IN)
recticle_3.gif
Max Power
A:
144
A:
36.0
B:
14.0
B:
3.6
C:
4.6
C:
1.2
D:
3.2
D:
0.80
E:
0.6
E:
0.10

4.5-14x44MD w/side focus:
Min Power
Reticle Dimensions
* all measurements in inches (IN)
recticle_3.gif
Max Power
A:
112.0
A:
36.0
B:
11.2
B:
3.6
C:
3.73
C:
1.2
D:
2.5
D:
0.80
E:
0.6
E:
0.2


ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2006 at 12:28
KB0WZL View Drop Down
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Hello all

 

Again I have to defend MILLETT TRS scopes,  when a statement without fact is made they are " Crap ".  I must say the bias here is amazing, and after one of your own has tested and used the TRS.  Shows, lack of a open mind and personal bais. 

 

I was under the impression that the " ol Hands" here were interested in facts not Personnal BS and had the knowledge to seperate data to have a accurate options.  I was wrong. 

 

Millett is making every effort as a company to improve our quality and give our customers the best scope with the most features for the money.  We are selling scope to top law enforcement agencies, we are getting glowing reports from the users of our TRS-1.  So when I see the Statement "Crap "  I realize the problem is not Milletts just the self proclaimed experts here.  We have put our scopes up to the best in a head on test and we have come out with high marks by one of your guys that is well respected by both the Ol hands and My self.   That should be a unbiased as it  gets but it seems to not matter to the experts here.

 

In 2007 we are adding more models of improved scopes.  We have a new TRS-2 in a fixed 10 power that will have all the same features of the TRS-1.  

 

I ask that before you make a statement without your personal use, clearifi the fact to the reader that this is your personal option, its what your heard, or Steve at Millett is a AH and I dont like his scope because of that.  

 

Thank you for allowing me to vent here.

 

Good shooting

 

Steve

 

Millett sights.

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2006 at 12:48
koshkin View Drop Down
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Well he did say "from what I have read", Steve.  Although I am not sure what he read and where.  The reviews on this website (by ceylonc and myself) have been generally fairly positive:

http://opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=4403&KW=millet t+factory

http://opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=4271&KW=millet t+factory

http://opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=4295&KW=millet t+low+light

Now, Steve, how is the Zoom Dot coming along?  While there is a lot of scope competition out there and some may like the TRS and some won't, I thought that your Zoom Dot was a pretty unique design.

ILya


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2006 at 13:06
Trinidad View Drop Down
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                 Steve like I said in the past I am no expert. You and your companies products

clearly show that you are no expert either, my scope recommendations are based on who I feel

are the experts. If you want to do some homework and get a insight on to what

alot of us here consider quality products spend more time here at the OT and help out ounce

in a while instead of crying to consumers what a great product Millet is.Trust me it is not great.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2006 at 13:48
Trinidad View Drop Down
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Steve what do you care anyway this is just a BLOG remember. This is the last time I am going to help you.

Quite frankly this is the wrong place for a free ad, I recommend this forum to you

http://forums.cabelas.com/search.php?searchid=110012

You need to start somewhere you know.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2006 at 15:45
KB0WZL View Drop Down
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Hello

 

Thanks for the help. I was not trying to put a ad in only informing as to the efforts of Millett to produce products that are of interest to serious shooters.

 

And SVD 666 how many scopes have your designed?  your statements are insulting and again with bias.

 

For those such as Koskin and Ceylonc thanks for having a open mind and the testing our scopes.

 

As to the blog, who cares?

 

good shooting

 

Steve

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2006 at 15:52
Trinidad View Drop Down
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Originally posted by KB0WZL KB0WZL wrote:

 

And SVD 666 how many scopes have your designed? 

 

As to the blog, who cares?

 

 

 

Steve

 

I am a consumer like almost everybody here, the question should be how many scopes have I owned.

I care about the people on this forum and want them to get the best for thier money. The way I have

acted here is not my nature, please spend some more time here at the OT,you will see that.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2006 at 16:10
justingeen99 View Drop Down
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Koshkin,

Thanks again. You have been very helpful. I had a chance to look at a sightorn with the 30mm tube one of the local stores. I appeared to be very well built. I was not able to see how good the optics were in the store, but it seemed like a nice scope.

I also looked at a few other scopes. The 4200, wow, I was impressed. I wish they made the mil dot in the 4x16, I would definitely buy it. I then looked at some higher priced scopes (Burris extreme tactical, Ziess conquest, Nightforce, and a Leopold xIII 30mm). I would have to say the Burris didn't seem worth the $750 they were asking. I like my Tac II better. I thought the other three were nice. Even after looking at these, I was still very impressed with the 4200.

Koshkin thanks for sticking up for me. Steve I am new here and have not looked at your scopes because none of the stores around here carry them. I can only go off of what I've read and it seems that the guys on this forum are very knowledgeable. With your tirade I'm not sure I care to look at your scopes. By the way which LE departments are using your scope? If your going to pull that type of thing you better back it up. My department (Pasco PD in Washington state) still deploys the good old Leopold. Besides if you product was all you make it out to be, it would speak for its self and you wouldn't need to get all defensive.

Hopefully I'm not being to bold for a new guy.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2006 at 16:39
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Now that you have my attention, which "top law enforcement agencies" are using the scopes you are referring to?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2006 at 16:45
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Does it matter which top law enforcement agenvy uses which scope? 

There are a lot of good scopes out there and law enforcement agencies tend to have a lot of inertia in their product choices, so I would not base my personal optics choices on that a whole lot.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2006 at 17:15
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Koshkin thats not the point. Its the fact that Steve made the statement in the first place. The only reason he used "top law enforcement agencies" are using his product was to gain validity in his product. Sorry I don't stomach BS very well. I guess its a casualty of my profession. However, If Steve is willing to say which departments are using his scope, I'll retract my statements and even try to check out one of his scopes.

How did this turn into a tiff in the first place? I just wanted to get some good advice on which scope to buy. Lets all kiss and make up . Hopefully we can move on and get back to talking about optics.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2006 at 17:23
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Originally posted by justingeen99 justingeen99 wrote:

Koshkin thats not the point. Its the fact that Steve made the statement in the first place. The only reason he used "top law enforcement agencies" are using his product was to gain validity in his product. Sorry I don't stomach BS very well. I guess its a casualty of my profession. However, If Steve is willing to say which departments are using his scope, I'll retract my statements and even try to check out one of his scopes.

How did this turn into a tiff in the first place? I just wanted to get some good advice on which scope to buy. Lets all kiss and make up . Hopefully we can move on and get back to talking about optics.


I am not planning to be kissing anyone from this forum, I can tell you that (there is a "Post your Picture" thread on "Anything Goes" forum).

Anyhow, to get back into the scope discussion: a store is an aweful place to evaluate scopes, since the lighting does not really present a challenge for the scope.  You want to compare scopes in low light, for the most part.  As for Sightron, I feel Sightron S2 scopes with 1" tubes offer a much better deal than S3 scopes.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2006 at 17:23
Trinidad View Drop Down
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I feel that the 4200 is the best scope choice in your price range. I also agree that Bushnell  should make a

Mil-dot 4200 in 4-16, a 4-16 30MM tube 4200 with a Mil-dot now that would be nice.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2006 at 17:27
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In the context used, yes. It rings of field use and acceptance. Being retired from the field, it's a bold statement.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2006 at 17:40
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Originally posted by KB0WZL KB0WZL wrote:

We are selling scope to top law enforcement agencies, we are getting glowing reports from the users of our TRS-1. 

 

Steve, lets cut to the chase.

 

What LE/Military people are giving you "glowing reports" and would you post them on The OT, to include the individuals name, rank, unit/dept etc.?

 

 

 

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2006 at 17:47
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Originally posted by SVD666 SVD666 wrote:

I feel that the 4200 is the best choice in your price range. I also agree that Bushnell  should make a

Mil-dot 4200 in 4-16, a 4-16 30MM tube 4200 with a Mil-dot now that would be nice.



That would be a nice scope indeed. 

As for Elite 4200 being the best choice in his price range, I disagree.  I am afraid it has barely enough W/E adjustment to get out to 1000yards with a 308, no MilDot reticle in 4-16x40 and 1/8' adjustments.  The 6-24x40AO which does have a MilDot reticle, does not have enough elevation range to get out to 1000yards with a 308Win (and still has 1/8" adjustments).

Similarly, Burris is low on W/E range.  Not enough to get out to 1000yards with both 4-16x and 6-24x Signature Select models. 

Of the 1" tubed scopes, Sightron S2 typically has the most W/E adjustment.  To get a larger adjustment range you pretty much have to go to 30mm scopes, which are typically out of his price range.

Interestingly enough, Mueller Tac II has very large adjustment range for a 1" scope.

ILya
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