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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/13/2012 at 14:10
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Chief Sackscratch

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So in my quest for more knowledge on all things benchrest i keep reading about neck turning and how its very important.   Anyone currently doing this?  Is is hard to get the hang of?  Whats the best methods for doing it?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/13/2012 at 19:18
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Not hard to do. You will need to know your chember's neck diameter to determine much you will want to remove. Note: your sizing die will then "under size" your neck tension by twice what you removed from your neck. For small caibers (under 50) I like Forester trimmer and it's neck trimmer attachment tool.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/13/2012 at 20:09
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Outside neck turning is most useful when you have a tight necked chamber.  For instance I have a 280AI with a .313" neck, a 6.5 rem mag with a .294" neck and a 338RUM with a .366" neck.  If you subtract the caliber and then the .003" considered optimal for neck clearance:
 
  • 280AI - .313"-.284"-.003"=.026"/2=.013" neck thickness per side
  • 6.5 rem mag - .294"-.264"-.003"=.027"/2=.0135" neck thickness per side
  • 338RUM - .366"-.338"-.003"=.025"/2=.0125" neck thickness per side

So most of the brass I get is thicker than that so I have to turn the neck down (plus an extra .0005" to allow for springback).  For instance my 6.5 rem mag Remington brass usually mic's around .014" to .016" varying from box to box.

IMO the advantage of having a tight neck is that you can determine your neck clearance by outside neck turning. IOW if you wanted it real tight so that you could shoot and reseat a bullet without sizing as some benchresters do with light 6mm PPC brass, then you can turn the necks to accomodate your chamber.  Plus you can set the ID of your neck for inside neck reaming which is most useful if you are necking down and have an increased possibility of a do-nut.  Do-nuts can also occur for other reasons (some will disagree).  Forster sells inside neck reamers that are .003" over caliber and that is the reason I like to turn for a .003" clearance.
 
Most factory chambers can be generous in their neck clearance and you can never count on finding thick enough brass to give you a tight clearance of .003" or less.  Most factory chambers I have measured have been in the .006" to .011" neck clearance range with normal brass.
 
Neck turning for a factory chamber can have some benefit but it is marginal at best.  When neck turning like that then you set your turner to just take off the high spots.
 
Equipment.  I use the Forster Hot 100 shown here with a mandrel and a reamer
 
 
and another piece of equipment I consider indispensible is a ball micrometer and a hands free stand
 
 
The Forster is well made and I consider it the top of the line of the medium priced models.  The K & M is in the next category and there are a couple of others I can't remember the name of right now.  The K & M has a lot of attachements and adjustments and can easily double or triple the price of the Forster, Sinclair et.al.   They have mandrels with a cutting tip that will do the work of a separate reamer but they ain't cheap!
 
I have used a K & M and prefer my Forster because the K & M has a narrow blade and will not give you as smooth or consistant finished surface as the Forster which has a wide blade
 
 
Also since I set my neck thickness up to leave a neck clearance of .003" on new brass then I will have a .003" over caliber ID after the first firing.  That allows me to use the outside turner and inside reamer at the same time to trap the brass and get a 100% consistant neck thickness.  This is done after the first firing and you just touch up the outside and ream the inside
 
 
which will usually take off an additional .0005" or so
 
 
If you have exceptionally bad brass to begin with, outside turning will not solve your problem
 
 
but this will self correct to some degree after firing, even though the thick and thin will usually carry down into the shoulder and case body and move up onto the neck a little after firing.  So best to find good brass to begin with and even sort the bad ones out.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2012 at 04:50
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Excellent pics, Sako. 

I've only turned necks on a factory chambered rifle and saw no benefit. Switched to Lapua brass and left it alone. I have a K&M unit. 

 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2012 at 07:51
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   GOOD stuff (as usual),Sako.
 
   I use to use an old Lyman unit to "true the necks" for factory chambers.  No more. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2012 at 09:33
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I turn the necks on some lots of cases for factory rifles, when the rifle itself is an outstanding performer, however not so much for tension but for "even" neck tension. After 10-15 neck sizes some cases will show small basins in the neck that can be felt by the resistence of the neck tool when turning. (even better brass).
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2012 at 17:01
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I guess that I could be called a "casual neck turner". Normally I don't see much advantage in turning necks with good brass for normal factory type cartridges. But when making up ammo for wildcat cartridges such as 6.5-.308, 6.5-06, and others where necks are reduced in diameter neck turning is usually required to prevent higher than normal pressures as the brass has to go somewhere making the neck walls thicker.
 
Being economy minded I buy mostly Winchester once fired brass either in .308 (for .308 W & 6.5-.308) and .30-06 (for .30-06, & 6.5-06). For the .308 & .30-06 I generally barely skim the outside of the neck and that usually results in a fired round that will easily and freely accept the bullet (slip fit) of that caliber with uniform neck wall thickness. If not I remove more. Chamber dimensions do vary. For the wildcats I try to get outside dimensions shown in handloading manuals and remove more brass.
 
I use a RCBS hand held neck turner and spin my brass using a Redding case trimmer without the cutter attachment (lots of cranking). I am looking into using a Lee case holding attachment so I can spin my brass using it and my DeWalt 3/8 cordless. I usually work on 100 to 400 case lots.
 
To avoid brass work hardening and split necks I use body dies when FL sizing is needed and Lee Collet dies for the rest. I hope to get Lee to make me a 6.5-06 collet die. I also load .204 R, .22-.250, .243 W, .280 R and some bigger than .30 using the same system - all in bolt guns.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2012 at 19:07
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Non concentric center of neck vs center of case
 
Some wildcat cartridges involve necking up rather than down. Usually a tapered expanding plug is used to increase neck diameter but if the expansion is quite a bit, like .308 to .338 or .338 to .375 the necks can be visually off center. Fire forming using cream of wheat/rice and pistol powder is a solution for this problem - nice sharp shoulders and well aligned necks.
 
The question then would be considerations for fireforming factory cartridges in a factory chamber as a fix for the off center problem. Would firing any cartridge in a close to perfect chamber fix a non concentric neck-body problem?
 
By handloading, brass is reused and checking neck wall uniformity either using a ball mic or just turning it down if you are picky can put your mind at ease. Should I have a 5 gal bucket of once fired Lapua brass I would not bother unless I was planning to neck it down. 
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/17/2012 at 07:33
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Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Excellent pics, Sako. 

I've only turned necks on a factory chambered rifle and saw no benefit. Switched to Lapua brass and left it alone. I have a K&M unit. 

 
Wanna move it?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/17/2012 at 08:38
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Your more than welcome to use it. It's for a .308. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/17/2012 at 08:41
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I'll have to call you about it.  I'll do that sometime soon.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2012 at 21:50
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Thanks, Sako.  Very informative.  I use the K&M myself but I like the looks of the Forester, especially doing the inside & outside at the same time.
 
Jim
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/24/2012 at 08:18
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Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

Outside neck turning is most useful when you have a tight necked chamber.  For instance I have a 280AI with a .313" neck, a 6.5 rem mag with a .294" neck and a 338RUM with a .366" neck.  If you subtract the caliber and then the .003" considered optimal for neck clearance:
 
  • 280AI - .313"-.284"-.003"=.026"/2=.013" neck thickness per side
  • 6.5 rem mag - .294"-.264"-.003"=.027"/2=.0135" neck thickness per side
  • 338RUM - .366"-.338"-.003"=.025"/2=.0125" neck thickness per side

So most of the brass I get is thicker than that so I have to turn the neck down (plus an extra .0005" to allow for springback).  For instance my 6.5 rem mag Remington brass usually mic's around .014" to .016" varying from box to box.

IMO the advantage of having a tight neck is that you can determine your neck clearance by outside neck turning. IOW if you wanted it real tight so that you could shoot and reseat a bullet without sizing as some benchresters do with light 6mm PPC brass, then you can turn the necks to accomodate your chamber.  Plus you can set the ID of your neck for inside neck reaming which is most useful if you are necking down and have an increased possibility of a do-nut.  Do-nuts can also occur for other reasons (some will disagree).  Forster sells inside neck reamers that are .003" over caliber and that is the reason I like to turn for a .003" clearance.
 
Most factory chambers can be generous in their neck clearance and you can never count on finding thick enough brass to give you a tight clearance of .003" or less.  Most factory chambers I have measured have been in the .006" to .011" neck clearance range with normal brass.
 
Neck turning for a factory chamber can have some benefit but it is marginal at best.  When neck turning like that then you set your turner to just take off the high spots.
 
Equipment.  I use the Forster Hot 100 shown here with a mandrel and a reamer
 
 
and another piece of equipment I consider indispensible is a ball micrometer and a hands free stand
 
 
The Forster is well made and I consider it the top of the line of the medium priced models.  The K & M is in the next category and there are a couple of others I can't remember the name of right now.  The K & M has a lot of attachements and adjustments and can easily double or triple the price of the Forster, Sinclair et.al.   They have mandrels with a cutting tip that will do the work of a separate reamer but they ain't cheap!
 
I have used a K & M and prefer my Forster because the K & M has a narrow blade and will not give you as smooth or consistant finished surface as the Forster which has a wide blade
 
 
Also since I set my neck thickness up to leave a neck clearance of .003" on new brass then I will have a .003" over caliber ID after the first firing.  That allows me to use the outside turner and inside reamer at the same time to trap the brass and get a 100% consistant neck thickness.  This is done after the first firing and you just touch up the outside and ream the inside
 
 
which will usually take off an additional .0005" or so
 
 
If you have exceptionally bad brass to begin with, outside turning will not solve your problem
 
 
but this will self correct to some degree after firing, even though the thick and thin will usually carry down into the shoulder and case body and move up onto the neck a little after firing.  So best to find good brass to begin with and even sort the bad ones out.

robert, will you adopt me??
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/24/2012 at 21:06
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

robert, will you adopt me??
 
Sure!
 
The yard help split because he hurt his back emptying the 6 yards of mulch out of the trailer yesterday and I've still got 27 more Bradford Pear trees to do
 
 
Not to mention all the Crepe Myrtles (14 or 15 IIRC) that need to be winter trimmed
 
 
My 14 year old dog can't get up off the floor anymore so sometimes there is a lot of crap to clean up in my workshop
 
 
You can stay in my workshop, the dogs will keep you warm
 
 
So come on down!  Big Grin
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2012 at 06:48
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Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

robert, will you adopt me??
 
Not to mention all the Crepe Myrtles (14 or 15 IIRC) that need to be winter trimmed
 
 
Doesn't look like winter to me......... Maybe I'll take you up on that!!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2012 at 08:18
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Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

robert, will you adopt me??
 
Not to mention all the Crepe Myrtles (14 or 15 IIRC) that need to be winter trimmed
 
 
Doesn't look like winter to me......... Maybe I'll take you up on that!!

no joke, me too!!Wink
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2012 at 08:30
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

robert, will you adopt me??
 
Not to mention all the Crepe Myrtles (14 or 15 IIRC) that need to be winter trimmed
 
 
Doesn't look like winter to me......... Maybe I'll take you up on that!!

no joke, me too!!Wink
 
Caught me!  I was just trying to set the hook.  Figured right about now all you Yankees would like the look of that (don't worry, you'll get used to the 98* / 98% humidity of summertime pretty easy, like working in a sauna, for free)
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