New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Neck sizing question
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Check GunBroker.com for SWFA's No Reserve and No Minimum bid firearm auctions.

Neck sizing question

 Post Reply Post Reply   Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/12/2011 at 17:02
jason miller View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: February/05/2007
Location: W Laf, IN
Status: Offline
Points: 229
I've wanted to get into reloading since I was a kid, and I finally bought an RCBS rockchucker kit.  They have that $50 rebate going on now, and I just had fairly serious knee surgery the other day.  With quite a lot of down time in my near future, this seemed like the perfect time to learn.  The kit and a case trimmer were purchased locally for good prices, but I still have to order dies.  The cartridges I'll be loading for are .243, 7mm-08, 7mm RM, 30-06, and .338 WM.  Since I have two 7mm rifles I'll be reloading for, I was wondering if I could neck size both 7mm-08 and 7mm RM with the same neck sizing die.  I'm not sure why, but I feel like I've read before where someone has used a die in the same caliber to neck size a different cartridge like that...

I'm sure I could figure it out myself once I get some dies in hand and see just how everything works in person, but I'd like to be able to order all my dies at once and get it over with. 


Oh, and any votes on RCBS/Redding/Lee?  I know Lee uses a different method of neck sizing, but not sure what the advantages/disadvantages are.  Being cheaper and coming with shell holders almost makes me want to go with Lee dies, unless they're somehow inferior...


Edited by jason miller - December/12/2011 at 17:19
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/12/2011 at 18:23
jonoMT View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: November/13/2008
Location: Montana
Status: Offline
Points: 4613
Some Lee dies, like the collet dies, do as good or better than much more expensive ones.

You won't be able to fit the magnum cartridge into the neck-sizing die for 7mm-08. Also even if they were the same diameter at the shoulder, the 7mm-08 (like the .308 Win and .243) head spaces off the shoulder (look up datum in conjunction with the cartridge you're interested in) while the magnum is a belted cartridge that headspaces off the belt at the base.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/12/2011 at 18:46
jason miller View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: February/05/2007
Location: W Laf, IN
Status: Offline
Points: 229
Ok, thanks.  And I realize the 7mm RM headspaces off the belt, but I was under the impression that you could simply resize the neck only and have a cartridge that headspaces off the shoulder like conventional cartridges- at least for the one rifle you now have fireformed brass for...

I planned on using that method to increase case life and hopefully aid in accuracy.  Those are the two benefits I've been lead to believe are possible from the reading I've done, anyway.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/12/2011 at 20:17
jonoMT View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: November/13/2008
Location: Montana
Status: Offline
Points: 4613
I'll leave the belted cartridge headspacing issues to someone else who handloads with them. Here's what I can tell you with cartridges that headspace off the shoulder: You will get a combination of the longest case life and best accuracy typically by using a full-length die and doing a partial-FL resizing, where you're setting the neck back .001-.002. But then are also partly resizing the upper part of the cartridge, reducing brass flow up the neck. You won't work the brass as hard as an FL resize.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/12/2011 at 22:36
sakomato View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: February/28/2008
Location: Houston
Status: Offline
Points: 1085

You won't be able to get the 7-08 case up high enough into the 7mag neck sizer to size the neck and you won't be able to get the fatter 7mag case up into the 7-08 neck sizer, so no you will have to have separate dies.

The good news is that the Lee Collet Neck Sizers are cheap and they are the best neck sizers (IMO).  Later if your cases get tight in the chamber then you can get a Redding Body Die to push the shoulder back and you have still only spent about as much as one Full Length Die.



Edited by sakomato - December/12/2011 at 22:41
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2011 at 00:15
trigger29 View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar
X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

Joined: September/29/2007
Location: South Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 4291
That collet size, and body die is the setup I run, and I love it. I think sakomato turned me onto it. He's a wise man.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2011 at 01:32
jason miller View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: February/05/2007
Location: W Laf, IN
Status: Offline
Points: 229
Obviously I'm a little ignorant about reloading, but why wouldn't a guy just buy the 3 die set from Lee, and run cases through the full length die if they become tight after several loadings?  What advantage is there in getting the body die separately?

And I really appreciate all the tips.  If anyone else wants to chime in with anything, feel free.  But I'd like to order some dies tomorrow, so I'm hoping to have my mind made up quickly.  One thing I was considering doing was to buy a set of 30-06 dies in one style/brand, and .243 dies in another style/brand.  Those are probably the two most popular cartridges I'll be reloading, and that way I could potentially resell whichever style I decide I didn't want to go with.  Thoughts?


Edited by jason miller - December/13/2011 at 01:35
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2011 at 02:09
trigger29 View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar
X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

Joined: September/29/2007
Location: South Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 4291
The body die doesn't have a neck expanding ball. The advantage of the collet sizer is no expaner ball to make the necks crooked. I bought a set with the collet neck sizer, and seating die. Then bought the body die separate. The lee fl die will still have an expaner ball in it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2011 at 08:40
sakomato View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: February/28/2008
Location: Houston
Status: Offline
Points: 1085

trigger, jono and I are all on the same page.  Wish I had started with the Lee Collet Neck Sizer and Redding Body Die combinations from the beginning and I wouldn't have a drawer full of miscellaneous dies that I never use (If you sell afterwards then shipping is such a hassle for $10.00 or so).

The Lee Collet makes straighter ammo and no lube inside the neck.  If you get one be sure and read the instructions and search around the reloading sites on how to adjust them.  They are not like regular dies in that you don't adjust them so your press cams over.  There are a couple of calibers that do not have the Lee Collet for and I hate the feel of that expander when you jerk it back through the neck and all that lube in the neck afterwards.  Been meaning to custom order a Lee Collet in those calibers, just haven't got around to it.
 
The advantage of getting the Redding Body Die is that you can still use the Lee Collet to size the neck and then size the body/shoulder without touching the neck.  Save your money for the seater.  A good seater is expensive and will make some difference, not much but some.  Personally I haven't had good luck with the Lee Seater and get a Redding Competition seater or the RCBS Competition seater.  Those are expensive and I'll bet the common Forster seater would be a good compromise.
 
I looked it up for a 30-06 on a site I can't mention here (M I D W A Y)
 
$19.99 - Lee Collet Neck Sizer
$26.99 - Redding Body Die
$44.99 - Forster Benchrest seater
 
The next best option is the Lee Deluxe 3 die set for $29.99 which includes the Lee Collet, Lee FL with an expander and a Lee seater.   You will get the Lee Collet which is a keeper but eventually you will want to upgrade to get the better body sizing and seating dies.
 
The plain cheapest 2 die set from RCBS with a FL die with expander and a common seater is $29.99
 
Your choice
 


Edited by sakomato - December/13/2011 at 08:53
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2011 at 09:54
Longhunter View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: February/02/2006
Status: Offline
Points: 422
+1 for Sakomato and the Lee collet dies.  They work great. 
 
As for the magnums, if you fire the shells in only one rifle the shells will likely expand to fit your chamber.  Then they will start headspacing on the shoulder as well as the belt.  At least, this seems to be the case in my .338 Win Mag.   


Edited by Longhunter - December/13/2011 at 09:55
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2011 at 13:11
jason miller View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: February/05/2007
Location: W Laf, IN
Status: Offline
Points: 229
Longhunter, that is exactly what I had planned on doing with my 7mm and .338 magnums.  Speaking of .338's- any idea if I could post on here some where offering 100+ 225 grain Accubonds for sale or trade?  Turns out that the throat on my rifle is incredibly long, and I think 250's would be a better match.

Thank you very much for the input, guys.  I was hoping to keep from buying things that I would end up not using, exactly as you said. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2011 at 13:49
SVT_Tactical View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
Chief Sackscratch

Joined: December/17/2009
Location: NorthCackalacky
Status: Offline
Points: 28753
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2011 at 16:46
jason miller View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: February/05/2007
Location: W Laf, IN
Status: Offline
Points: 229
Sorry to keep bugging you guys, but approximately how many loads do you guys get out of a case before they get tight and you have to resize the case?  I assume this depends on how how you're loading them, the individual rifle's chamber, and the shape/taper of the specific cartridge's case, but any ballpark figure would be nice so that I know about what to expect.



Also, before I wrap this up, are there any counter arguments in favor of traditional resizing/neck sizing dies with the expander ball? 

I would have thought that the quality of the die would have more to do with alignment of the case and neck than the method used to accomplish the task, but maybe I'm wrong?  Is not having to clean up lube enough to make the collet method worth it?  Also, does anyone have any problems with case neck thickness when using the collet dies?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2011 at 20:46
Crosswire View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: November/04/2008
Location: West NC
Status: Offline
Points: 67
Forget about case belts and how headspace is measured, that's only for gun makers to worry about. 
 
Many people simply jam their brass into their FL sizers as far as possible; that often vastly over resizes the cases and can lead to head seperations.  We reloaders need to make ammo that fits our chambers and, with bottle neck cases of any kind it that simply means we adjust our FL dies so the shoulder fits snugly enough to control excessive case stretching but allows the action to close easily.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2011 at 23:51
sakomato View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: February/28/2008
Location: Houston
Status: Offline
Points: 1085

Typically you will get 3 to 4 reloadings before the case gets tight in your chamber.

Any expander ball type of reloading die will give you problems with concentricity because of their design. 

The Lee Collet solves the problem with variance in neck thickness.  The mandrel is free floating and will self center in your case and the collets will squeeze the neck brass onto the mandrel.  The mandrel is perfectly round and this makes your neck interior dimensions the most consistant.  Where you will have problems with neck thickness variance is with the bushing type neck sizers when you use them without the expander that they come with.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2011 at 00:53
tjtjwdad View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman


Joined: December/11/2007
Status: Offline
Points: 365
How does using an expander ball (with good reloading techniques) cause bad run outs?  I use Redding S-Type Bushing dies for my Varmint Rifles and mr TIR's are .000 to .001 consistently.  I use dry neck lube and a carbide expander ball.
 
From an accuracy POV, it seems to me the inside neck tension on the bullet affects accuracy. If the neck thickness is uniform then theres no issue, but if they're not, and not using an expander ball any uniformity issues are transfered to the inside of the case neck when sizing just the outside of the neck (such as removing the expander ball from a F/L or Neck Sizing Die).  The expander ball pushes those imperfections back to the outside of the case neck so bullet case tension is uniform. 
 
I'll confess I don't know how the Lee die works.  Does it in someway make the inside of the case necks uniform with it's design?  Just curious.
 
As far as runouts, there a many things that can cause runout issues and bent decapping/expander ball rods is one and probably the most frequent.  Bad/worn out presses can cause them too.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2011 at 19:23
sakomato View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: February/28/2008
Location: Houston
Status: Offline
Points: 1085

Hey tj, you're right, the decapping/expander ball stem being bent is part of the problem and you're also right about the ID of the neck consistancy being critical. 

How much the expander will cause problems will also depend upon how small the neck portion of the die sizes the neck before you pull the expander is pulled back through.  IOW if the neck is sized down .010" below caliber and the expander is drawn back through to set the neck .002" below caliber, that is a lot of force.   But if your die only sizes the neck down .004" below caliber and then the expander sizes it back to .002", then you don't have near as much pulling force on the neck and shoulder brass.

If you have a bushing die and still use the expander ball that comes with it then you can determine this.  Most reloaders use the bushing dies without the expander assembly and outside turn necks to try and keep thickness variations from migrating to the ID.  But it is almost impossible to outside neck turn to a consistancy smaller than .0005".
 
I did a test on 30-06 cases where I happened to have a FL die with expander, a bushing die and a Lee Collet.  The cases were all outside neck turned when new and I sized 5 with each die.  I was testing the consistancy of the ID of the necks after sizing with each method by measuring with pin gauges
 
 
they come in increments of .001" but you can tell additional information by how easy or hard they are to insert in the neck.  The Lee Collet produced the most consistant results, the expander ball had some variation (some tight, some loose) and the bushing die came in last with enough variation to require 2 pins to get through the 5 sized with it.
 
Don't get me wrong, good straight cases can be made with any of the dies but the Lee Collet is easiest to get right.  When you fire the cases the neck brass is ironed to your chamber and it will have very very little if any runout.  The mandrel of the Lee Collet is free floating and will not push the neck one way or the other when sizing.  The brass is pressed onto a perfectly round mandrel so the ID of the neck is very consistant.
 
And no jerking or lube!
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2011 at 21:47
tjtjwdad View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman


Joined: December/11/2007
Status: Offline
Points: 365
I do appreciate the lesson.  WRT Lee Collet dies a lot (and I mean a lot) of people swear by them.  For my next caliber I had plan om giving them a try.
 
Thanks again.
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Similar Threads: "Neck sizing question"
Subject Author Forum Replies Last Post
Body sizing only?.....Neck sizing? sniper13 Reloading & Ballistics 115
Re-sizing the neck using the seating die Dolphin Reloading & Ballistics 14
Neck sizing or full lenght ??? shooter4 Reloading & Ballistics 52
Case neck sizing/ruined hunt fishingfool Reloading & Ballistics 15
neck-sizing? billyburl2 Reloading & Ballistics 14
Neck turning questions 8shots Reloading & Ballistics 16
Neck Turning? richardca99 Reloading & Ballistics 20
New brass - full resize or neck only? tpcollins Reloading & Ballistics 34
Annealing your casing Necks budperm Reloading & Ballistics 23
tight neck ? grumpy04730 Firearms 5


This page was generated in 0.422 seconds.