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Neck sizing or full lenght ???

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 04:12
shooter4 View Drop Down
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Gentlemen
 
I have a question about the operation of the (RCBS) die set. It says somewhere "adjust the resizing die to either full lenght OR neck size the case". 
 
Can you guys tell me whats the difference here? I did not know I could choose between those two operations. I thought it was only one - resizing the neck for the new bullett.  How do I just neck size, and how do I do both? 
 
As always - THANKS.


Edited by shooter4 - December/22/2009 at 05:25
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 07:38
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you can adjust the height of the die in the press so it only neck sizes the case instead of full length sizing it.

it saves on your brass, makes it last longer and can promote better accuracy. if you are loading for a semi auto i wouldnt recommend it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 08:16
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To add to what Pyro said, if your potentionally going to use your reloaded ammo in other rifles always full length resize.  This brings the ammo back to original factory specs.  If your only going to load for that particular rifle you may want to try neck resizing. This allows the brass to be fire formed to your chamber and should promote accuracy.  Just remember that this ammo is likely to work in your rifle only.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 08:41
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You don't necessarily have to use "full-length sizing" for loads used in a sporting semi-auto rifle.  It depends in part on the rifle, the load, and whether the ammunition will be used in another rifle  
 
I used neck-sized rounds in a Remington 742 semi-auto .30-06 without any problems.  These were regular loads (not max), and used only in this rifle.
 
Ditto for pump rifles.  I use Lee collet dies to load for my Remington 7600 pump .30-06,  without any problems.  Again, these are regular loads (not max) and are used in this rifle only.   
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 09:06
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Neck sizing does not always lead to better accuracy at least not all the time.  Typically you will have to full length resize every few reloads anyway.  This will vary depending upon the round, but some might make it 4 or more while others you have to do it every other load. 

Problem with neck sizing is then when you have to full length resize things have changed a whole lot for that particular round because the brass is now a different size.  So it is going to shoot different than your neck sized only.  If you full length resize every time then your brass will always be the exact same size from shot to shot.  Yes it will wear out your brass faster but it will be more consistant and the key to accuracy is consistancy. 

Lots of shooters searching for the very best accuracy and consistancy just full length everytime.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 09:39
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Im only using it for one rifle (Tikka T3). What Im interested to know more about, how to I adjust my die for neck sizing only? Do I just screw it up high in my press, or not pull the lever down all the way?

Also, it there a lot of difference in case life if I choose to full size?
 
Many thanks guys.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 09:46
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Originally posted by lucytuma lucytuma wrote:

To add to what Pyro said, if your potentionally going to use your reloaded ammo in other rifles always full length resize.  This brings the ammo back to original factory specs.  If your only going to load for that particular rifle you may want to try neck resizing. This allows the brass to be fire formed to your chamber and should promote accuracy.  Just remember that this ammo is likely to work in your rifle only.

lucytuma's advice is dead-on. Neck size only for the rifle in which the brass was fired. I have a pair of 03-A3 Springfields. Neck sized reloads for one will not even chamber in the other. Now I just full-length everything so the loads can be used in both rifles. Full-length sizing does stress the brass and reduce its life, but at least then the loads are not rifle-specific.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 09:53
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One more thing to add.  Neck sizing does not mean they will always fit your chamber exactly either.  They obviously are changing a little every single time you shoot them.  They continue to grow until they have to be full length resized meaning they will be a slightly different size every shot.

Plus, in reality a chamber is not perfectly round.  One side of the brass may expand more than the other because the chamber is not all equal.  So unless you put it back in your chamber the exact same way the next time you somewhat loose the whole neck sizing only so it is perfectly fitted to your chamber thing anyway 

If you full length resize everytime then it is always the same size from shot to shot. 

But if we are talking hunting accuracy all this is probably a moot point.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 11:43
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How to I adjust my die for neck sizing only? Do I just screw it up high in my press, or not pull the lever down all the way?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 11:46
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

you can adjust the height of the die in the press so it only neck sizes the case instead of full length sizing it.


As he said there you have to adjust the die.  If you tried to do it by pulling the lever a certain amount you would never be consistent.


Edited by supertool73 - December/22/2009 at 11:47
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 13:05
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Follow the die manufacturers directions and recommendations for setting up the FL resizing die for neck sizing. I use Redding dies and there is an instruction card with a procedure for backing the die out the proper distance to neck size only. I'm sure others like RCBS are the same. As stated in the other posts, if it's for your gun only neck size it. If it's for any other gun full length size it.

RK
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 13:15
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To properly size just the neck with a full-length die (AKA partial-FL resizing), you really need a tool like the Hornady case length gauge. That will allow you to measure a fired case and then you can start with the die so it isn't sizing the case at all and turn it down until it starts to resize the case just a tiny bit. You're looking to set the case mouth and neck back  only .001-.002". The case length gauge measures from the datum point on the case neck, rather than the case mouth. On non-banded cartridges, the datum point is where the case is held in the chamber, preventing the case from moving forward during firing.

It is true that you will alter the case each time it is fired, but that isn't necessarily a reason not to partial-FL resize. As brass flows towards the case mouth, you will eventually have to trim the end of the case so that its OAL doesn't exceed the chamber length. That is dangerous. Eventually, after a certain number of firings, enough brass will flow that area around the case head will become thin and weaken. Also, the brass will work-harden and unless it is properly annealed around the neck to soften just that part of the cartridge, it will lead to splits, etc.

I look at the equation this way: $0.55 (per .308 Lapua case)/10 firings of partially-FL resized case = $0.055 per round...then you may have to discard cases or learn how to anneal. So if you aren't interested in annealing or in learning how to do it correctly, that's your cost per round with high-quality brass and you get all the benefits (for one particular rifle) of using minimally resized fire-formed brass.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 13:20
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Wow, 10 firings with no annealing?  I usually anneal every 4th firing.  Even with partial sizing you are still working the neck so they will still get quite brittle and will affect your neck tension.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 13:21
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One note on neck sizing using the FL die is that when you back the die out you are also not resizing the entire neck as you would be able to if you were using a neck sizing specific die. Usually not a problem for most, but on a short necked round like the 300 WM it will be an issue.

PS To know how much of the neck is being resized using the FL/Partial method it's time to break out that invaluable tool on every serious reloading bench.......the Sharpie. That, or blacken the neck with a candle depending on your romantic moods :)

Edited by Roy Finn - December/22/2009 at 13:26
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 19:07
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Roy, might I assume you are speaking of a 300 Win mag, and not a 300 weatherby?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 19:08
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You can only partial neck size with a full length die, that is you only size part of the neck
 
you do this by unthreading the die up about 3/4 turn.  If you thread the die further in then you will start to size the case body and like squeezing a baloon it will push the shoulder forward and create a crush fit (most of the time but it will depend upon how much head clearance or headspace you have on that particular case).
 
If you continue to thread the die in until it size all the neck, all the case body and contacts the shoulder just enough to relieve the crush fit, then that is partial full length resizing.  By pushing the shoulder back a minimal amount of .001" or so and leaving a very slight crush fit, then you will get the best brass life.  This usually happens about 1/8 to 1/4 turn down past where the die contacts the shell holder.
 
If you continue to push the shoulder back until there is no contact between the case shoulder and the chamber shoulder, then that is full length resizing.  Repeatedly pushing the shoulder back and making it re-expand will shorten case life and lead to possible case head separations.
 
Now to neck size, or size all the neck, you need a dedicated neck sizing die.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/22/2009 at 19:17
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Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

Roy, might I assume you are speaking of a 300 Win mag, and not a 300 weatherby?


Yes sir.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2009 at 11:42
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Wow, 10 firings with no annealing?  I usually anneal every 4th firing.  Even with partial sizing you are still working the neck so they will still get quite brittle and will affect your neck tension.  


I was clearly wrong there. 4-5 firings is as much as you should expect between annealings, even with partial-FL resizing. I was not talking from actual experience, so I apologize for putting bad information out there.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2009 at 20:58
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There are a number of misconceptions about neck, partial and full-length resizing.
 
If we are interested in accuracy, the main point of any brass resizing is the make the case as straight as possible, so that when we seat a bullet it has the best chance of heading down the barrel without being tipped slightly. Ideally, the case shoulder center itself in the chamber, one reason that some reloaders like to partial-size the neck: The unsized portion of the neck just in front of the shoulder tends to center the neck in the chamber.
 
However, neck-sizing alone does not guarantee this, because most neck-sizing dies don't support the case body. Thus the neck can easily be pulled out of alignment with the case body when the neck is pulled over the expander ball. Partial sizing with a full-length die tends to prevent this, because the case is more fully supported.
 
Whether or not this causes problems with the case shoulder being "pushed" forward by the die depends a lot on the case itself. The more parallel the sides of the case, the more likely the shoulder will be bent forward during resizing, especially if the sizing die is much smaller than the chamber.
 
Commercial chambers and dies are cut with reamers that start at maximum size. As the reamer wears, the chamber/die gets smaller, until at some point it becomes the minimum size acceptable, and the reamer is toast. If you happen to get a maximum chamber, cut by a new reamer, and a minimum die, cut by a small reamer, then there often will be problems with sizing brass.
 
This is a long-winded way of saying whether to neck-size, partial-size or full-length size depends on a number of factors. There ain't any single answer. Using dies that only reduce the neck diameter (such as bushing dies, or Lee collet dies) sometimes works better with certain rifles than standard dies using an expander ball.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/23/2009 at 21:49
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Originally posted by shooter4 shooter4 wrote:

Gentlemen
 
I have a question about the operation of the (RCBS) die set. It says somewhere "adjust the resizing die to either full lenght OR neck size the case". 
 
Can you guys tell me whats the difference here? I did not know I could choose between those two operations. I thought it was only one - resizing the neck for the new bullett.  How do I just neck size, and how do I do both? 
 
As always - THANKS.
 Just to back up a step here; I don't believe we really ever answered this question in the  Original Post, (if he's asking what exactly we're trying to accomplish by resizing in the first place.)
 
When a fired case is resized for reloading, the goal is usually two-fold:
1. Compress the (enlarged) neck radially, to allow it to grip a new bullet at least firmly enough so that it doesn't fall out in your pocket, etc.
 And,
2. Compress the body of the expanded case (both radially and longitudinally) to allow it to fit back into the chamber.
 
 Either one or both of these operations may be legitimately performed to various degrees of dimensional change, depending on the circumstances involved, and the desired results.
 
 I just wanted to make that distinction clear before the discussion continued, in case it was overlooked.
 
Carry on!
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/24/2009 at 10:07
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Good points!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/24/2009 at 16:28
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While on this subject I hope you can help me trouble shoot a brass issue I am having. The 700 Rem that I recently built is giving me some problems with shoulder length. I am having to pick thru new and fired brass to find brass with the shortest base to shoulder length. I first thought it was a problem with oal, but that proved to be no problem. I use RCBS full length and Winchester brass. What is the best solution for feeding this machine? 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/24/2009 at 20:47
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 What cartridge is your 700 chambered for, Sarge?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/24/2009 at 22:54
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Originally posted by Roy Finn Roy Finn wrote:

Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

Roy, might I assume you are speaking of a 300 Win mag, and not a 300 weatherby?


Yes sir.
Ok. As I read that my box of once fired 300 wby brass had just showed up, and the factory boxes were marked .300 WM Magnum. I pulled one out and looked at it, and thought the neck looked pretty long. I then went to the safe, and pulled out a .300 Win. I never really realized how short the neck is on those.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/25/2009 at 13:33
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Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

 What cartridge is your 700 chambered for, Sarge?
 
 
Pyro's favorite, the wonderful .270. What gets me is some (reloaded) brass fired in this rifle won't got a second time. I wanted a short throat, but I wonder if it needs another 1000th for the shoulder. Or maybe different brass or dies. I am very precise when loading for it, but I didn't expect to have to be quite so picky with brass. I did expect fired brass to work well.
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