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Neck dies & flash hole deburr

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/05/2012 at 20:20
Gil P. View Drop Down
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I am looking into buying a neck die to prolong the life of my brass and improve accuracy the accuracy of my 308 bolt action rifle. I only have one rifle chambered in 308. I was looking at a Redding Type S Neck bushing die and some kind of flash hole deburr tool that can be put into a drill. Can anyone recommend any? The Redding die uses bushings, which I am not familiar with; are they easy to use or would I be better off with a simpler (and cheaper) neck sizing die that does not use bushings?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/05/2012 at 21:19
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RCBS make great neck sizing dies. Also look up RCBS trim mate on here. You can do the flash hole, debur, chafed Nd trimmed using the same set up. If u can't find my upgrade I posted let me know and I get post here from a computer tommorow.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/05/2012 at 21:38
Gil P. View Drop Down
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Ill take a look at the RCBS neck sizing dies, but im not ready to spend the money on a trim mate just yet. Im only reloading for one caliber right now, and I havent gotten tired of doing everything one at a time just yet. It looks neat though ill keep it in mind for the future. Have you used any flash hole deburr tool on its own, or do you know of one that is said to work well? I would like to be able to put it into a drill.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/05/2012 at 22:59
sakomato View Drop Down
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Get a Lee Collet neck sizer

You don't have to lube the neck

You will get straighter ammo without the expander ball

It is cheaper

Flash hole deburrers are all the same

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2012 at 06:18
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

Get a Lee Collet neck sizer

You don't have to lube the neck

You will get straighter ammo without the expander ball

It is cheaper

Flash hole deburrers are all the same


Concur!! 

Lee Deluxe Die set is great!! FL die, seater die, and collet die.....DONE! 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2012 at 06:23
Bigdaddy0381 View Drop Down
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yeah, there is nothing to fancy about the flash hole tools. any will work well.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2012 at 06:40
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Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

Get a Lee Collet neck sizer

You don't have to lube the neck

You will get straighter ammo without the expander ball

It is cheaper

Flash hole deburrers are all the same


Concur!! 

Lee Deluxe Die set is great!! FL die, seater die, and collet die.....DONE! 
Concur also. Love my collet neck dies.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2012 at 07:08
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Proof is in the puddin, as they say.....

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2012 at 07:10
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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I actually had a better group going yesterday, but pulled the 4th shot. The above is about 6 or 7 rounds, at 100 yards. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2012 at 13:34
Gil P. View Drop Down
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The Collet dies are about 1/4 the cost of the Redding type S die (not including bushings). So whats the big deal with the Reddings? The Lee Collet dies seem good and a good value. What do I gain from using a Collet as opposed to a regular neck die that is not adjustable? 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2012 at 13:44
Gil P. View Drop Down
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Scratch the Redding type S die. I think I will go with the Lee collet or a regular non adjustable neck sizing die. What are the disadvantages of using an non adjustable die? Less accuracy im guessing.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/06/2012 at 18:55
sakomato View Drop Down
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Gil
 
The Lee Collet neck sizer uses a totally different method of resizing.  Here is a series of pics showing the die and it's moving parts
 
 
the die has a long mandrel in the middle that is the same size throughout it's length.  It has a decapping pin on the end.  The long mandrel is floating and not locked down even though it is secured (loosely) at the top by the cap.  The floating mandrel goes down through your fired case and the central moving part of the die hits the shell holder and raises the collets up onto your neck.  There is a constriction on the collets which squeeze the neck brass onto the mandrel.  The mandrel determines the inside diameter you are sizing the neck to.
 
No lube is necessary since you are not dragging any part of the die against any part of the case.  It does not pull on the neck/shoulder like an expander ball does so it does not introduce any negative concentricity.
 
However there is a learning curve.  If you get one be sure and repost so that we can all give our opionion on the best way to use one.
 
IMO the Lee Collet is the single best thing you can get or do to improve your ammo.  It will cure 85% or more of runout/concentricity problems which is alignment of the neck with the case body.  If you get a Lee Collet then a concentricity gauge is superfluous unless you are just curious.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2012 at 01:15
Gil P. View Drop Down
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Thanks for the very informative post Sakomato, you have made my decision very easy. I know ill be picking one of these up in the very near future and until then, I will be recording group sizes using my FL die (by taking pictures so I can show everyone) and then compare them to using the Lee collet die, to see the difference.
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Search Sakomoto's posts and you'll find a lot more excellent info.
All who "agreed" about the Lee collet die are correct.

I really like my K&M Precision flash hole deburr tool. Lyman's tool appears to operate on the same principle, i.e. it has a "one size fits all" guide.
Flash hole deburring is one of those things you can do when you think you don't have enough to do.
I've no idea whether it makes a lick of difference and I've been known to not deburr lots of cases.

Of course, now that you've started reloading, you'll find that you need all manner of gadgets to satisfy your mind and pretty soon, you'll have to start building extra storage space for doodads.

How did I end up with 3 presses and "need" them all?
By the way- good job on picking that T7 press... what a tank.
Might have to pick one up for myself (here we go again).

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2012 at 08:31
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Yes and amen to what Alan and the guys have said. Sako's pictures are always welcome and informative as well.

I would like to suggest buying Lapua .308 brass, right out of the gate. This one purchase, though pricey, can really make the whole reloading trip more worthwhile. 

Thanks again Sako. Your pictures are awesome!  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2012 at 11:10
Gil P. View Drop Down
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Alan, the T7 press is truly massive, the thing weighs about 25 pounds and it works great! Its not a bad looking hunk of metal either. I bought because I was trying to avoid buying more than one press haha.

Cheaptrick, I want to try the Lapua brass when my reloading skills get a little better to try and get the most out of it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2012 at 11:29
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A bushing gives you more control over neck tension.  Have the neck tension the same from round to round so it releases the same each time can help with accuracy.  Depending upon your accuracy wants/needs it may or may not be worth it to you.  
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Gil P. View Drop Down
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Supertool,

I hear that a bushing die like the Redding type S creates more runout than a Lee collet die. What does runout have to to with accuracy? As a beginner, I think I may be better off with the collet die because it is simpler.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2012 at 12:13
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Runout means your bullet is not perfectly straight in the case.  So when it fires off in your chamber it starts out slightly crooked.  So it hurts accuracy as it take a while to straighten up. 

The collet die is good, no doubt.  I was just stating what a bushing die can do for accuracy potential too.  But unless you are looking for extremely accurate match ammo, in a custom barrel with a tight match chamber a bushing die will probably do nothing for you. 

Bench rest shooter full length size vs neck size as well.  I full length all my brass any more.  I never saw any benefit on the targets.  So there is always more than one way to skin the cat.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2012 at 12:26
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I personally feel expander balls and case trimmer pilots cause more run out than anything.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2012 at 12:26
Gil P. View Drop Down
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Ill keep that in mind because I do want to get a match barrel sometime in the future.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2012 at 12:27
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I haven't tried the Lee collet die, but runout using a Redding Type S bushing die and partial-FL resizing is very low. Still, if I had it to do over again, I'd probably get the Lee...may just add one since they're not expensive.
 
Partial-FL resizing works well because it doesn't work-harden the brass unnecessarily like FL resizing does. Yet it does counter some of the brass flow since it sets the neck and should back slightly. A neck sizer won't do that and after a few firings you'd have to FL resize.
 
Lapua brass = no flash hole deburring. It also is so uniform you don't have to sort either. Handloading is time consuming as it is.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2012 at 12:32
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Gil P. Gil P. wrote:


Cheaptrick, I want to try the Lapua brass when my reloading skills get a little better to try and get the most out of it.

I get that, but if your trying to wring all the accuracy you can out of a given rifle, buying Lapua brass is one of the best purchases you as a reloader can make, my friend. 
Hey, that great company makes brass your the caliber you shoot....take advantage of it. Wink 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2012 at 12:39
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The problem with most neck dies is it creates runout because you are not supporting the whole case when you push back on the brass to do the neck so it bends the brass slightly.

While FL sizing does work the brass more it will keep your brass supported better during the sizing process.

Another advantage is FL sizing if done properly returns the brass to the exact same size every time.  NK sizing you will get some that are hard to close the bolt and some that are not because they grow at different rates.  So you are not consistent from brass to brass. 

I like the Hornady FL bushing die for my match rounds.  It supports the case, resizes it all, has a bushing and also bumps the shoulder.  Most bushing dies do not allow you to bump the shoulder, they are designed that way.  My runnout is typically .002 or less. 

The neck resize is only one of the causes of runout, you still have neck thickness which turning fixes and bullet profile (the bullet may not be round), bullet seating needs to be perfect.


Edited by supertool73 - June/07/2012 at 13:41
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/07/2012 at 13:23
Gil P. View Drop Down
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cheaptrick, I suppose you're right. You cant afford to buy anything less than quality.

supertool, you're saying that FL sizing will cause less runout than neck sizing? Why dont most bushing dies allow you to bump the shoulder if they are FL dies? 
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