New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - my Vortex Razor 8x42 : out of spec s??
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Check GunBroker.com for SWFA's No Reserve and No Minimum bid firearm auctions.

my Vortex Razor 8x42 : out of spec s??

 Post Reply Post Reply   Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2010 at 05:43
tamanoir View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper
Avatar

Joined: June/25/2010
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 25
Hello,
first, let me apologize for my bad english (I'm french), and let me thank you, all of you here : people experimented in optics or even "less" exprimented. I'm an avid reader before purchasing new tools/toys and this site in particular was very usefull, by its very good "mentality" and its technical level.
As a quick presentation, I'm an avid optics lover, a picky one (spliting the stars), and a "reasonnable" one too (having pleasure to effectively use and to see through, not only scrutinizing the sole instrument performance). I own and know these products in particular : Takahashi (FS102, FS60), Intes-Micro 150, Zeiss FL 8x42, Vortex Razor 8x42, IOR 7x40, etc and I would be happy to help someone having a question about these.
I never forget that everybody is different in its experience, technical level, needs/requirements, eye/brain processing, even enthousiasm about a quality/defect... and I allways take all of that with a grain of salt, even for me !
So, my question/concern : I have recently bought a Vortex Razor 8x42. I wanted it to be "not frustrating" in comparison with my Zeiss FL 8x42, and in fact it succeeds very well. In a nutshell I'd say the major difference is a little bit more CA (the FL is champion in this categorie), a constrat level a lit bit less high. Impressive considering the price difference, even if the Zeiss deserve is high price : aiming perfection has a cost, and fnally the Zeiss deserves it without a doubt. But the Razor is darn good.
OK, that was for daylight.
The problem is at night, aiming at the full moon, a street lantern. There are BIG diffraction spikes. So much on the moon that it is deceptive in fact. Not a faint one but a big and relatively bright one, evident. In the Zeiss, nothing ; in an other and much less costly roof prism bino nothing too : here there is lots of other reflections but not "that" one. I looked reverse through the objectves, and in the Razor the "roof edge" is evident even with "normal light". I can see this, very faintly, in the Zeiss but only by aiming at a flashlight 2-3 cm (1 inch) away.
So my question is : do you see this line (roof edge) in your Razors ?? How is it ? very faint, obvious ? What aiming the moon : do you have braod diffraction spikes, and is it obvious or berrely noticable ?
I wonder if my Razor is ot of spec or not. They are very, very, good for terrestrial observing but rather annoying on the moon !
Thanks to you all !

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2010 at 11:09
RifleDude View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar

Joined: October/13/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 14312
Welcome to OT, tamanoir!
 
Are you referring to coma?  Is this effect in the center of the field or at the field edge?  If the effect is towards the field edge, but not in the center of the sweet spot, this is normal.
 
I own a Razor 8X42, and when looking at stars at night, I do not see the effect you are talking about, except at the very edge of the field.  In fact, I found I was able to get very well defined definition of point light sources without much flare in the central 2/3rds of the field.  I've found the Razor to be excellent at controlling flare in general.
 
First, let's rule out the obvious things... is your diopter setting correctly adjusted for your eyes?  If so, I would send it in to Vortex with a description of the problem to have it checked out.
 
Not many binoculars would compare favorably to the Zeiss FL in this regard, so you may just be spoiled by the extremely low CA the Zeiss offers.
 
Let us know what you find.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2010 at 12:42
tamanoir View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper
Avatar

Joined: June/25/2010
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 25
Thank you very much, RifleDude, for your so quick response !
I know you own a Razor 8x42 : your review and comparison vs your Leica 10x50 has been one important entry in my decision in favor of the Razor.
So, the obvious things : all settings (diopter,IPD, eyecups) adjusted. Focus ajusted too.
The effect is not coma, nor astigmatism, nor CA, nor SA.
It is an effect due to the edge of the "roof" in a roof prism (I wonder if I'm clear in my explanation) : the "roof" is composed of 2 planes that intersect, forming what I call the edge of the roof prism. In theory this edge, this line, could be without any thickness; but in practice there is a thickness depending of the precision of the machining.
By looking through the objective (reverse position), you can eventually see this line splitting diagonally the image of the occular plan. With my Razor, it is obvious, with other binos it is more or less obvious, with the Zeiss I had to illuminate with a flashlight to "begin to see" it.
Optically this tiny ligne causes a diffractive effect (as with spiders supporting the second mirror in an Newton telescope for example) : edge more or less sharp ==> thickness of the edge more or less small ==> diffractive effect more or less visible. In each barrel it creates a "spike" of light, perpendiculary to the direction of the edge. With two eyes opened, it looks like an X.
This effect can be eventually seen on small and very intense light against a dark ground (heavy contrast and small light), tipycally street lanterns, intense stars (Vega, Sirius), the moon, a distant flashlight, etc. It is centered on the light and occurs in the center of the field and towards the edge.
So the X spikes effect is normal for all roof binos (vs porros), but appears more or less. I can see it in every roof I own and I used, excepting the Zeiss FL.
I noticed the X was more or less long depending on the distance of the eyecup, but it remains.
My concern is to see it on the moon with the Razor, where it remains obvious (a big X of relatively faint but very noticable light, 3-4 diameters long each side of the moon). And that a little pitty, as i find my Razor performs very well by daylight, even compared to my Zeiss (and yes I'm spoiled by the FL).
On the stars, I can seen it too, on Vega. Except this, the view of the remaining stars is very nice, a la Zeiss.

Thanks !



Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2010 at 14:16
RifleDude View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar

Joined: October/13/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 14312
I understand a little better what you're talking about tamanoir.  Mine does not show the same effect, or if it does, it must not be too severe, as I've never noticed this in mine.
 
It sounds to me like you may have a defective unit, but I cannot say without seeing your Razor.  Luckily, we have 2 members who work for Vortex here on OT, Sam@Vortex and Scott@Vortex.  I will direct them to this thread and hopefully they can help you and answer your questions. 
 
I do hope you get this issue resolved to your satisfaction!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2010 at 14:42
koshkin View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Dark Lord of Optics

Joined: June/15/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 10961
It sounds like the roof edge on your binocular is a little out of spec, or there something sitting on the prism and coupling to the evanescent wave.

Either way, perhaps you should have Vortex look at your binocular.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2010 at 15:53
spf2 View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: February/02/2007
Status: Offline
Points: 169

I agree with Ilya. It looks like the roof edge was not precisely cut and glued together. I have seen this on my old Bushnell roof before.  For daylight use, it shouldn't matter much.  It can be distracting when trying to use it on stars at night. This is wherre Porro binoculars shines.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2010 at 16:34
tamanoir View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper
Avatar

Joined: June/25/2010
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 25
Thank you Ted, Ilya and Spf2.
Your observations confirm what I was thinking : these roof edges are out of spec, particulary for a Razor, and considering Ted's Razor works normally (no obvious or annoying defect).
Thank you, Ted, for the directing towards the 2 members at Vortex, I appreciate a lot.
Having read a lot of good opinion about the exemplary support of this society, I hope and I'm confident a solution will be found satisfactorily (mmm, is that english ?), even if I'm from France and I have bought my unit on Internet from an german dealer !

This forum was invaluable to me to make my mind about products ; I didn't thought one day I would have to write here to say "help" ; now I'm glad this site exists. Thanks again to you.
I will keep you informed about the developpement of this story.
 


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2010 at 01:30
RifleDude View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar

Joined: October/13/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 14312
Definitely keep us posted on what you find out from Vortex, tamanoir.  I am interested in what the source of the problem is.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2010 at 09:31
tamanoir View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper
Avatar

Joined: June/25/2010
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 25
Yes Ted, I will.
Today I wrote to my german dealer to inform him about the problem and to ask for an exchange.
And I wrote directly Sam and Scott at Vortex too (via service@vortexoptics.com) to inform them and to ask about their thinking about the technical problem, and to ask "in advance" about the warranty.
So, will see...

Have a great we !
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/30/2010 at 10:11
tamanoir View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper
Avatar

Joined: June/25/2010
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 25
Hello,
this post just to keep status of the progress :

Saturday, June 26, :
- mail to Vortex (@ Sam and Scott)
- mail to the German dealer
to inform of my problem

Monday June 28 :
- answer from the German dealer who is "not familair with technical details so I will forward your email to the german distributor." Because of holidays the answer could take one week or so
==> status WAITING

June 29 :
- PM from Scott@Vortex to redirect me to Shamus who is able to take care of my problem (as I'm a not american customer).

- mail from Brian, Customer Care Manager at Vortex, confirming that I'm covered under warranty, and forwarding the information to Shamus who is able to put me in contact with the distributor who handles warranty service for customers in France.
==> status WAITING

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/05/2010 at 05:33
tamanoir View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper
Avatar

Joined: June/25/2010
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 25

Hello,
this post just to update status of the progress for a solution :

HISTORY :
*******
Saturday, June 26, :
-------------------
- mail to Vortex (@ Sam and Scott)
- mail to the German dealer
to inform of my problem

Monday June 28 :
---------------
- answer from the German dealer who is "not familair with technical details so I will forward your email to the german distributor." Because of holidays the answer could take one week or so
==> status WAITING

June 29 :
--------
- PM from Scott@Vortex to redirect me to Shamus who is able to take care of my problem (as I'm a not american customer).

- mail from Brian, Customer Care Manager at Vortex, confirming that I'm covered under warranty, and forwarding the information to Shamus who is able to put me in contact with the distributor who handles warranty service for customers in France.
==> status WAITING


*******
UPDATE :
*******
June 30 :
--------
- mail from Brian@Vortex, changing the plans as the UK distributor has a death in his family, and proposing to send directly a replacement from the US.

July 01 :
--------
- mail from Brian@Vortex, detailing our arrangement for return: France to UK & replacement: USA to France.
Brian is concerned about inspecting the replacement for me and asks for my "permission" to take it at home and to try it at night on the moon !
==> status WAITING

(at this time, still no answer from my german dealer or from the redirected german distributor. They said "one week or so" before an answer for a solution, but their first reaction and the redirecting feels it will be like "hassle promise" for me ... Could be wrong, will see.)

==> at this time story is not finished, but I'm already m very impressed by the good attitude of Vortex and Brian's commitment !

(When I will receive my replacement unit, and if there is some interest for some of you here, I could post a review of Razor and a comparison vs my Zeiss FL 8x42, as I choose the Razor in the hope it would be a good companion for the Zeiss).
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/21/2010 at 11:26
tamanoir View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper
Avatar

Joined: June/25/2010
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 25
Quick update.
- about the seller : I informed my german seller of my arrangement with Vortex directly. Item closed.
- about Vortex : Brian has already tested one unit for me, but the results were not completly positive (street lanterns only, as no moon were visible). Brian asked me if he should test a second pair (I appreciate this honnest attitude).

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/26/2010 at 08:11
tamanoir View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper
Avatar

Joined: June/25/2010
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 25
My new Razor has been sent.
I will keep informed of the performance of this new baby, compared to my Zeiss FL.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/26/2010 at 10:16
lucytuma View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight
Avatar

Joined: November/25/2007
Location: Wisconsin
Status: Offline
Points: 5389
Good deal, let us know your impressions.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2010 at 05:39
tamanoir View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper
Avatar

Joined: June/25/2010
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 25
Hi all,
a quick update : I received my replacement Razor 8x42. This pair had been tested by Brian W. at Vortex, who feeled concerned by my initial problems. I would like to publically say thank you Vortex, THANK YOU BRIAN for your honesty, for your involvement and your seriousness !
I said I would give a comparison of this pair with my Zeiss FL 8x42.
It will take some time, and as I'm a little schiso when it comes to optics I would to do this enough seriously to give effective information for a potential buyer, with two points of view : the absolute one ("picky one") that looks at the binos itself for little defects or points of amelioration, and the "real user" one that looks through the binos as a tool to see sights in the field and notice what he likes/dislike from a usage point of view ; example : CA near the border of field of view : picky tester WILL say "could be better", the real user COULD say "no problem, doesn't degrade the view in normal usage".
What I can say for now : I don't know if I have a cherry Razor (I bet my new unit is more representative of a normal unit than the original one that presented a evident defect) but after an informal comparison, I can say that the Zeiss wins, for each point taken separatly (sharpness, contrast, micro-contrast, CA, distorsion, etc)  and perhaps even a little more for the combined result (global feeling), but in fact it is quite MARGINAL, the Razor is really just a tad below, and the final word is that the schiso in me is embarrassed : the picky one in me would say "want the best of the best in the world, arguably ? the FL deserves his price !", the "reasonnable user" in me would say "the optical performance of the Razor is so good, and so near the Zeiss that you have to be maniac to spend more". The final word is I've a big smile with these Razor, even compared to my Zeiss and I can use one or the other without any frustration nor any feeling of a loss : that itself is a big statement for me.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2010 at 07:16
RifleDude View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar

Joined: October/13/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 14312
Good news, tamanoir!  I look forward to reading your review, sir!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2010 at 21:38
JGRaider View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master


Joined: February/06/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1431
You have a fantastic bino in that Razor, and a fantastic company to back it up.  Congrats on that, and I'm sure you'll have many years of great fun with them.  I'd be willing to bet that unless you have them side by side, you'll never notice the difference in the two.   
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2010 at 05:02
tamanoir View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper
Avatar

Joined: June/25/2010
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 25
Hi all,
and thanks Ted and JGRaider for your congrats.
I didn't forget I promised a review ! I will take some time to put all my observations in worthy words.
I have made observations/comparisons between the Zeiss and the Razor in dily basis from the reception of Razor, in a large panel of situations, form dark night to full sun, for very high constrats to very low one. I have "learned" the Razor and its use. I feel I now a good idea of the performance of two, going for for ultra-scrutinizing to "cool down" mode, passing trough effective observation of sky, nature, animals and birds. Hard to to write all of this... but I will do.
Before my little review, just a word for whose who woud question themselves about th Razor, as I have seen it recently : I have Pleasure with the Zeiss FL, I have Pleasure with the Razor.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2010 at 12:01
Bitterroot Bulls View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: May/07/2009
Location: Montana
Status: Offline
Points: 3379
Looking forward to it!

I am in the market for a pair of 8Xs.  The Razors are on the short list.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2010 at 14:38
stickbow46 View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: January/07/2009
Location: Benton, Pa
Status: Offline
Points: 4673
Looking forward to the review,Thankyou for taking the time to inform us Alfred!
 
By the way your English is a lot better than my French so type on,your doing just fine Cheers
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/08/2010 at 05:29
tamanoir View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper
Avatar

Joined: June/25/2010
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 25
Hi all,

I have finally finished my review and posted in an other post, to close this one.
Thanks again for all the replies, and the help you gave me.
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Similar Threads: "my Vortex Razor 8x42 : out of spec s??"
Subject Author Forum Replies Last Post
Review Zeiss FL 8x42 vs Vortex Razor 8x42 tamanoir Binoculars 16
Vortex Razor HD 8x42 Binos Dan Optics For Sale 3
vortex razor 8x42 or 8.5x50 dwighet Binoculars 5
FS: Vortex Razor 8x42 binoculars koshkin Optics For Sale 3 4/2/2007 11:26:28 AM
vortex razor 8.5x50 vs zeiss 8x42 FL varmintmaster77 Binoculars 0
8x42 Vortex Razor - OT Fieldtest Program Review lucznik Member's Tests and Reviews 31
Vortex Razor 20-60x85 Razor HD BNIB SVT_Tactical Optics For Sale 2
Vortex 8x42 Viper vs. Nikon Monarch 8x42 newguru Binoculars 3
Zeiss Conquest HD 8x42 or Vortex Razor 8x42? Losthwy Binoculars 7
FS Vortex Razor 10 X 42 Brocksw Optics For Sale 1


This page was generated in 0.485 seconds.