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My Blaser .308 and Swarovski

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2007 at 02:08
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I recently aquired a Blaser that came with a short .308 barrel, and a Swaro 2.5-10x42 PH scope.  While playing with it at home, and sighting in at the range, I was quite pleased with the scope, but during a hunt this past weekend, I was not. 

 

This is the first scope that I have owned where the recticle enlarges as you zoom, at first I thought this was a neat feature, but after missing two pigs, I don't think so.  I am used to the old put the bottom of the cross hair on the back of the animal at 300-400yds thing, when I did this with the Swaro PH at 8 or 10 power, I shot over both times.

 

I realize that this is one of the most highly regarded scopes made today, but am I nuts for wanting to switch to another because of the enlarging recticle feature?  I have a Monach Gold on the .300WSM barrel, and I really like it.  I'd appreciated any thoughts or comments!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2007 at 08:18
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I don't understand how the front focal plane reticle could cause that to happen.  I hope someone can explain why the FFP did or didn't cause this to happen.  It would not make sense for the FFP to change the point of impact.  Hopefully it was just operator error.

Edited by TheDrakeTaker
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2007 at 08:41
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Possibly (just possibly) the perceived over-shoot was due to a changing frame of reference.  If you are accustomed to 2-inches hold-over on a SFP scope and you try to reproduce the same distance in a FFP scope, perhaps you held over way too much.

 

In theory, the point of impact should not change as you change power - either for FFP or SFP scopes.  That said, perhaps the scope is damaged.  My bet would be that it takes some time and effort to grow accustomed to (and appreciate) the FFP idea.  I've used both and, for ranging, love FFPs but for known distance prefer the SFP.

 

All that to say this: my favorite hunting scope now is a Swaro, if you decide you want something else, send me a PM and we'll talk about my helping you into a new scope and out of the Swaro.

 

It was probably a distance estimation error: a 2-inch holdover looks very different on a FFP than it does on a SFP.

 

Was it a ranging reticle or a standard plex?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2007 at 09:40
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I just got a Kahles C 3-12X56 with a FFP and I have yet to shoot something with it(besides sighting in).  How can I figure out what the holdover is supposed to look like?  In the situation described above, aiming at the top of the back of an animal at a distance thought to be 300-400 yards, the bullet will be dropping at that point (assuming around 200yard zero) you should be fine.  The bullet should come down, never in that situation would you shoot high would you?    
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2007 at 10:26
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I'm sure the POI was not affected, what I was addressing was how the reference of the hold-over obviously changed.  My guns are zeroed at 100yds, because that is usually the distance I shoot at.  200 is an easy correction, and 300 usually equates to ~30 inches with a .308.  In a typical Leupold type fine crosshair, putting the bottom of the cross hair on the animal's back will produce the desired effect.  In this case it did not.  I have an American Swaro with a typical recticle that helped make a 430 yard shot last year.  Since ALL of my other scopes are SFP, maybe that's where I should stay, rather than learning a new system all over again.  This PH scope is a standard duplex.  Thoughts?

Edited by Fishinado
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2007 at 11:29
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Correct me if I'm wrong.   If you have a 100 yard zero, and you need to bring the bullet up 30inches at 300 yards, you need to aim 10inches high at 100 which is 30inches high at 300.  Right?  So if you aim at the top of a hog's back at 300 yards, shouldn't you hit about 30 inches below the top of it's back?  So how did you shoot high?  The top of the hog's back is the top of the hog's back it is in the same position no matter what kind of reticle you have.  The bullet is still 30 inches low.  I'm a little confused, I hope someone can clear this up.

Edited by TheDrakeTaker
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2007 at 11:35
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Robert,

 

Without getting technical, with my 100yd zeroed .308, I hold dead on at 100,  ~30" high at 300.  That's what works for me.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2007 at 11:41
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Are you sure your gun isn't zeroed at 300 and not 100, you just said it is zeroed at 100, but from what you said it sounds like your gun shoots high at 100 and dead on at 300.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2007 at 11:42
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I have to agre with RC on the swaros,I have one FFP scope and there is a learning curve but after you figure it out you wonder why you have no used it before since your mil-dot is correct at all magnifications. Do pm us if you decide to sell. You may want to PM Ilya for more tech info on FFP scopes.

 

Duce 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2007 at 14:02
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A couple of comments:

1) What 308 load are you using?  Just about any 308 load I am aware of drops somewhere between 13" and 16" at 300 yards, if zeroed at 100 yards.  How did you arrive to the 30" drop number?  35" to 40" would probably be the right drop for most 308 hunting loads at 400 yards or so.  I really do not think you can use the same holdover point for both distances.  Are you sure the pig was about 300 yards out?

2) With FFP reticle placement, the size/dimensions of the reticle remain constant at all magnifications.  If you use the reticle for holdover, I think it is worth your time to learn to use FFP, but that is a personal choice of course.

3) What are the dimensions of the reticle in your scope (this should be in the instruction manual)?  You said you used the "bottom of the crosshair".  Does that mean you have a plex reticle and used the bottom of the thin part (or the top of the thick bottom post) to aim?  If memory serves me right, on a Swaro plex and on the #4 reticle, the space between the center of the crosshair and the top of the thick post is 12.5" at 100 yards.  However if you have a 4a reticle that same dimension is 25" at 100 yards.

Assuming you have a plex reticle and that the pig was 300 yards away, if you used the top of th bottom post to aim, you were holding ~37.5" high.  That would have been a reasonable hold for 400 yards, but way too high for 300 yards.  Chances are you shot over the back of the pig.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2007 at 16:40
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Thank you for joining Ilya.

1.The load is Federal with 150 grain Barnes TSX. The distance was 400yds+ my holds are usually 15-20" at 300-350, and 30-36" at
400.

2. The size of recticle most definetly increased as I increased the power.

3. I bought the set-up used so I don't know exactly which recticle I have, it is very thin at 2.5x and very thick at 10x, and I used the
top of the bottom post to aim. I would assume it's a plex.

However, the question remains, does the perceived hold over change when you increase the power, and the size of the plex?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2007 at 17:02
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The holdover with the FFP reticle is the same regardless of magnification: as you increase magnification, both the target and the reticle get magnified, so the relationship between the size of the target and the size of the reticle remains constant.  If it is a plex reticle the top of the bottom post is 12.5" from the center of the reticle at 100 yards, 25" at 200 yards, 37.5" at 300 yards, 50" at 400 yards, and so on.

Chances are you shot over the back of the pig, if it was at 400-450 yards.

All manufacturers use reticles of slightly different sizes.  You really need to know the reticle dimensions before you use the reticle for holdover.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2007 at 19:35
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Alright, that certainly explains it.  No doubt I shot over, I was foolish to asume the hold over was what I thought.  Looks like I need to spend some time with this new set-up so I can figure out the hold overs exactly.  I will share my results.  Thank you to all!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2007 at 20:32
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That clears a lot up for me as well.  I've been trying to find the reticle dimensions for my Kahles but I'm having some trouble.  If anyone on here has access to this information please let me know.  Thanks/.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/13/2007 at 23:01
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What ILya mentioned earlier was probably the culprit...Though aside from any recticle scope problems, my suggestion when hunting pigs or larger game, is always to zero your rifle if possible, at 300 yards....Your .308 is not the flattest shooter; but if you are going to try shots at 300 yards or more, a 300 yard zero will eliminate alot of guess work out to 350-400 yards.............I have a 16.5" short barrelled Ruger Frontier in a 300 WSM. Pigs happen to my specialty. Over 30 so far! My last hunt produces a 402 lb. sow at 342 yards. My scope was zeroed at 300 yards. As a result, very little guesswork there! I used a 180 gr. Nosler Accubond producing a chrono`d MV velocity of 2994 fps..............Also, you may want to compare the difference in BC & downrange ballistics between the 150 gr. & 180 gr. bullets. A slower 180gr. from the muzzle, may be better downrange in bullet drop than a faster 150 gr............I would definetly look into those two areas!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2007 at 01:07
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That information is available on Kahles website.

http://www.kahlesoptik.com/retensions.php5?produkt_id=8

4a reticle on a 3-12x56 has an opening of 50.4" at 100 yards, i.e. the distance from the center of the reticle to the to of the bottom post is half of that: 25.2".

ILya

Originally posted by TheDrakeTaker TheDrakeTaker wrote:

I just got a Kahles C 3-12X56 with a FFP and I have yet to shoot something with it(besides sighting in).  How can I figure out what the holdover is supposed to look like?  In the situation described above, aiming at the top of the back of an animal at a distance thought to be 300-400 yards, the bullet will be dropping at that point (assuming around 200yard zero) you should be fine.  The bullet should come down, never in that situation would you shoot high would you?    
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2007 at 06:13
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That's on any magnification right since it's a FFP reticle?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2007 at 12:08
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Yep.

Originally posted by TheDrakeTaker TheDrakeTaker wrote:

That's on any magnification right since it's a FFP reticle?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/14/2007 at 13:08
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