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My BEEF w/ Bushnell!!!

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Yes!.......I have a beef with Bushnell!! My thoughts on the other thread prompted this new subject!................For the money the Elite 4200 line of scopes is probably near the top or at the top for being one of the best scopes on the market for the money. It`s no secret that I own one...................So! New this year from Bushnell is their new 6500 line of scopes, which imo, are totally useless for most carry in the field hunting rifles as they are too long and too heavy. But they are very good for varmit rifles, as their high end magnification starts at 16X...................My beef with Bushnell is that while they expanded their line to offer their new 6500 series, they for the most part, ignored or failed to properly expand and offer more of a selection in their 4200 line!...........Not enough selection in reticles and no selection of lower magnification DGR scopes with 1" tubes. Why in the world would they even consider discontinuing the most popular hunting variable ever, the 3x9, in their 4200 line?? Absolutely stupid!!!...............In the 4200 line, there are no 2x7`s, 2x8`s, 1.5x6`s, no 1x4`s  no objective bells smaller than 48mm OD, no straight tubed scopes in 1", and on and on!!............................The 4200`s for their limited selection, still offers the best scope for the buck! But Leupold sure offers a much broader selection in literally everything that a hunter/target shooter could ever ask for!!...........For selection, my hat is off to Leupold.Thunbs%20Up  I give credit where credit is due! To Bushnell, for coming out with the 6500 line (YUK) that most hunters will not buy while ignoring the 4200 line; they get a Thumbs%20Down,,,,and a,,, Loco,,,,and a,,,,,Whacko,,,,and a,,,,Roll%20Eyes,,,from me!!!   
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WELL!
I was, at first, not very happy with the 6500. Regarding the size of the 2.5-16x42, I can't complain a whole lot. It is 17 oz. and 13.5" long which is not too bad for a big game rifle.
On the other hand I lament the loss of excellent optics in cost effective 3-4 power zoom scopes that both Bushnell and Nikon had offered. I see the same thing around the corner with my favorite, Kahles.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/05/2008 at 21:21
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Greed???? Loco

Cornering the market??Loco
 
 
All new scopes will flop this year, at least in the US, the weekend hunter can't afford the "newest and best thing" anymore with the stagnant US economy.  Bushnell is catering to hunters that still have money, an area they will fail miserably in!  My 2 cents.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/05/2008 at 21:29
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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

WELL!
I was, at first, not very happy with the 6500. Regarding the size of the 2.5-16x42, I can't complain a whole lot. It is 17 oz. and 13.5" long which is not too bad for a big game rifle.
On the other hand I lament the loss of excellent optics in cost effective 3-4 power zoom scopes that both Bushnell and Nikon had offered. I see the same thing around the corner with my favorite, Kahles.


Do you own a 6500?........If so? Sorry!.....But with the exception of varmit/target use, they are too over magnified for any realistic big game hunting use. 17 oz. may not seem like alot, but it can take its toll over a long days hunt. Imo, beyond paper punching and varmits, there is no other use for the 6500`s!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/05/2008 at 21:31
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I don't think the weekend hunter has ever been interested in the "newest and best thing".
I have a friend who just recently started hunting again and for him it was a revelation in equipment. He has recently bought 8x42 Razors and a 3-9 4200. It is not the newest nor the best, but a definite upgrade from his Simmons.
This same fellow also looked through a couple of my Kahles scopes and could tell a difference from his new Bushnell.
There is a niche for everyone. Some can grow, equipment wise, and some cannot. Whatever stage they are at, I want to see happy hunters.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/05/2008 at 21:33
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Big Squeeze, Bushnell does make a 1.25-4 straigt tube (although i don't see were it says whether it is 1" or 30mm)
 
 
This should be the whole 4200 selection offered.
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[/QUOTE] Do you own a 6500?........If so? Sorry!.....But with the exception of varmit/target use, they are too over magnified for any realistic big game hunting use. 17 oz. may not seem like alot, but it can take its toll over a long days hunt. Imo, beyond paper punching and varmits, there is no other use for the 6500`s![/QUOTE]

Hey, Big
I don't own a 6500. I'm still on a Kahles bender!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/05/2008 at 21:36
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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:




Do you own a 6500?........If so? Sorry!.....But with the exception of varmit/target use, they are too over magnified for any realistic big game hunting use. 17 oz. may not seem like alot, but it can take its toll over a long days hunt. Imo, beyond paper punching and varmits, there is no other use for the 6500`s![/QUOTE]

Hey, Big
I don't own a 6500. I'm still on a Kahles bender!
[/QUOTE] ..................That`s good!.............
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/05/2008 at 21:41
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Well, I guess I could answer a few questions for you, but you might not  agree with Bushnell's logic or lack thereof. In the 4200 line, the 1.5-6x36 was discontinued because sales numbers no longer made it profitable for them to continue making this scope. Sad, because I think it's a very useful magnification range. Personally, I would have given it a little more eye relief considering the fact that this scope would probably find it's way onto some heavy kicking rifles/slug guns and such if it was marketed correctly from the get go. As far as the 3-9 4200 goes, I believe they thought it was going to cut into the sales of their 2.5-10x40 to much so and dropped it. I know, sounds stupid because the reason they introduced the 3-9 4200 was to have a player in their top of the line series 4200 to capture the sales of the 3-9 market. Confused, you should be. How someone at Bushnell's brain trust couldn't see that one coming I'll never know. Don't need a skin in your hand from Wharton to figure out that conflict. Not to mention, the pricing wizard's decision to set a price difference of almost $150. Shear genius I say. So, introducing a 3-9 in the 4200 series not only hurts the 2.5-10x40's, but, puts a dent in the 3200 3-9's as well. Shocking isn't it. As far as the 6500's are concerned, if they would loose some of the fat somewhere, I would get on line just for the heck of it. I'll make a prediction, it's sales will struggle. And you heard it here first from your's truly.  As far as Leupold is concerned, hey what the heck, they don't make a 3-9 or a 2-7 in the VXIII series because, well it would be stupid.

Edited by Roy Finn - March/05/2008 at 21:48
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/05/2008 at 21:42
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Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:

Big Squeeze, Bushnell does make a 1.25-4 straigt tube (although i don't see were it says whether it is 1" or 30mm)
 
 
This should be the whole 4200 selection offered.
Helo....................Its a 30MM!!!! Did my homework on that one as I`m scoping my new Howa M1500 375 Ruger coming in late summer.
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I am sure you did do your homework.  And if you don't mind me asking, why do you not want a 30mm tube?  Extra weight of the scope and rings with nothing to gain for it?

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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

I don't think the weekend hunter has ever been interested in the "newest and best thing".
I have a friend who just recently started hunting again and for him it was a revelation in equipment. He has recently bought 8x42 Razors and a 3-9 4200. It is not the newest nor the best, but a definite upgrade from his Simmons.
This same fellow also looked through a couple of my Kahles scopes and could tell a difference from his new Bushnell.
There is a niche for everyone. Some can grow, equipment wise, and some cannot. Whatever stage they are at, I want to see happy hunters.
 
tahqua, you hit the nail on the head!  Happy hunters, that's all that matters.  I'm anxious to see if selling all my Leupolds will pay off, that's part of the game and I took the gamble.  I've hunted with Leupolds since 1995, first scope I'd ever owned and sold it for $30.00 less than I paid for it back in 95, along with many other Leupolds that I parted with.  It all comes down to "Right place, right time", no matter what you are hunting with.  I get caught up with the newest and best quite a bit, but, when you pull up to a check station, the biggest buck is typically taken with a Simmons or iron sightsLoco.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/05/2008 at 22:04
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Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:

I am sure you did do your homework.  And if you don't mind me asking, why do you not want a 30mm tube?  Extra weight of the scope and rings with nothing to gain for it?

Simple!............My Ruger Frontier compact uses the 1" rings now, as I use my Elite 3x9 4200 for that rifle on occassion. I will buy another 1" tubed scope for the 375 Ruger M1500, that I can ALSO use on the Frontier. That adds to my versatility with the ability to switch the scopes around without having to buy new 30mm rings for the 300 WSM Frontier!!...........
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/05/2008 at 22:14
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Originally posted by Big Squeeze Big Squeeze wrote:

Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:

I am sure you did do your homework.  And if you don't mind me asking, why do you not want a 30mm tube?  Extra weight of the scope and rings with nothing to gain for it?

Simple!............My Ruger Frontier compact uses the 1" rings now, as I use my Elite 3x9 4200 for that rifle on occassion. I will buy another 1" tubed scope for the 375 Ruger M1500, that I can ALSO use on the Frontier. That adds to my versatility with the ability to switch the scopes around without having to buy new 30mm rings for the 300 WSM Frontier!!...........
................Also, to add to the above, I see no big advantage in owning a 30mm scope! 1`ve never used them, never hunted with them and to me there is no real huge benefit in owning one. They are more expensive, heavier, and increases the rifles profile!
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Here are my thoughts on Bushnell.  Their reticle selection is poor, unless you want to send it back to have it change out for extra cost.  The magnifications selection lacks some options.  Doesn't bother me because I don't hunt with those anyway.  I think it is hard to beat the price for what you get.  The raingaurd is amazing.  As for the 6500, I like the idea of what they are doing.  I use both my 270 and 300 to do everything from hunting deer in the brush to shooting at 1000 yards, so having a scope with such a wide mag range is great.  For the average person, it isn't needed.  I would like to see alot more reticle selection, but maybe time will fix that.  Other than the lack of reticle selection problems, I think the 4200 and 6500 are great scopes.
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"Stick with Zeiss - It's OH SO NICE"  Big%20Smile
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/05/2008 at 22:31
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Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:

Here are my thoughts on Bushnell.  Their reticle selection is poor, unless you want to send it back to have it change out for extra cost.  The magnifications selection lacks some options.  Doesn't bother me because I don't hunt with those anyway.  I think it is hard to beat the price for what you get.  The raingaurd is amazing.  As for the 6500, I like the idea of what they are doing.  I use both my 270 and 300 to do everything from hunting deer in the brush to shooting at 1000 yards, so having a scope with such a wide mag range is great.  For the average person, it isn't needed.  I would like to see alot more reticle selection, but maybe time will fix that.  Other than the lack of reticle selection problems, I think the 4200 and 6500 are great scopes.
.........................As you say though, for the average JOE BLOW (person), the 6500 is not needed! As I said before, for paper punching, varmits and now, I`ll even throw in 1000 yard target shooting, the 6500 would serve those purposes well............Beyond that? Nope!.......I have always said that the 4200`s with the Rainguard are the best scopes on the market for the money! I have one!................If it were up to me, I would have concentrated on more 4200 improvements and selections in many areas, rather than putting a line, namely the 6500`s, on the market that IMO, will not sell as well vs. had more been put into the 4200 line!!............    
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Originally posted by Big Squeeze Big Squeeze wrote:

Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:

Here are my thoughts on Bushnell.  Their reticle selection is poor, unless you want to send it back to have it change out for extra cost.  The magnifications selection lacks some options.  Doesn't bother me because I don't hunt with those anyway.  I think it is hard to beat the price for what you get.  The raingaurd is amazing.  As for the 6500, I like the idea of what they are doing.  I use both my 270 and 300 to do everything from hunting deer in the brush to shooting at 1000 yards, so having a scope with such a wide mag range is great.  For the average person, it isn't needed.  I would like to see alot more reticle selection, but maybe time will fix that.  Other than the lack of reticle selection problems, I think the 4200 and 6500 are great scopes.
.........................As you say though, for the average JOE BLOW (person), the 6500 is not needed! As I said before, for paper punching, varmits and now, I`ll even throw in 1000 yard target shooting, the 6500 would serve those purposes well............Beyond that? Nope!.......I have always said that the 4200`s with the Rainguard are the best scopes on the market for the money! I have one!................If it were up to me, I would have concentrated on more 4200 improvements and selections in many areas, rather than putting a line, namely the 6500`s, on the market that IMO, will not sell as well vs. had more been put into the 4200 line!!............    
 
I have to agree with you on the development of the 4200 line.  They probably should have made that a higher priority than the 6500 just based on which would sell better.  If they had better reticle selection, and personally for me, 30mm tubes for the 4200 (i think they have a few) i might have bought it instead of the Burris XTR (although the new version has the stormcoat, a version of raingaurd supposedly).  But the Burris had what I wanted, and I have to admit, I am a big (ok really big) Burris fan.  I do own a 3-9x40 4200, and it is a great scope and I would recommend it to anyone that wants great glass for a great price.
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Originally posted by bricat bricat wrote:

"Stick with Zeiss - It's OH SO NICE"  Big%20Smile
......................A low powered variable DGR Zeiss 30mm scope starts at a grand!.................The DGR low powered variable Leupy VX3 is $399!.................The Leupy will do the same thing as the Zeiss, whether on the range, in Alaska, in Africa, or anywhere else and under any conditions!..................  
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Helo18,
 
I'm building a 270 and would like to know what kind of reliable range you are getting. And if you don't mind talking shop, what are you loading? It will give me some proven options and might save me some powder. What kind of groups are you getting on your max range? Right now I'm using Sierra 140hpbt that is great to 400yds. When the new one gets here I'll run that one and plan to try the Barnes Max-range 130gr and the Hornady 130gr
SP-interlock.
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Originally posted by Sgt. D Sgt. D wrote:

Helo18,
 
I'm building a 270 and would like to know what kind of reliable range you are getting. And if you don't mind talking shop, what are you loading? It will give me some proven options and might save me some powder. What kind of groups are you getting on your max range? Right now I'm using Sierra 140hpbt that is great to 400yds. When the new one gets here I'll run that one and plan to try the Barnes Max-range 130gr and the Hornady 130gr
SP-interlock.
 
I would be happy to answer and ?s you have.  But so that we don't hijack this thread, post the question under a new thread in the reloading section.  You will get alot of other people helping out too if you do.  PM sent.
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Originally posted by antleraddiction antleraddiction wrote:

 
 
All new scopes will flop this year, at least in the US, the weekend hunter can't afford the "newest and best thing" anymore with the stagnant US economy.  Bushnell is catering to hunters that still have money, an area they will fail miserably in!  My 2 cents.
 
 
I'm not so sure. The only competition for the 6500 is the Swaro. With the prices of Euro glass going through the roof, I imagine most of the "newest and best thing" crowd will give the 6500 a second look. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out.
 
I agree on the Thumbs%20Down for dropping the 3x9 4200. If they had to do something, they should've gave it more eye relief.
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Originally posted by Big Squeeze Big Squeeze wrote:

Originally posted by bricat bricat wrote:

"Stick with Zeiss - It's OH SO NICE"  Big%20Smile
......................A low powered variable DGR Zeiss 30mm scope starts at a grand!.................The DGR low powered variable Leupy VX3 is $399!.................The Leupy will do the same thing as the Zeiss, whether on the range, in Alaska, in Africa, or anywhere else and under any conditions!..................  
.....................A straight tubed scope is my 1st preference! That`s why I mentioned the above with such a big price difference.
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Another scope with 6x erector is IOR, so Swaro is not Elite 6500's only competition.  Still Elite 6500 are the only scopes with the 6x erector in the under $1000 category.  Also, they expect to add more scopes to the line-up, such as a straight tube 1-6.5x scope. 

Existing Elite 6500 models could actually do very well with long range shooters on a budget.  Their weight is actually not all that high for their magnification ranges.  Also, you have to keep in mind that they do have a unique combination of features (especially for their price range): 16x and 30x top end magnifications, 6.5x erector, 4" of eye relief, 80+ MOA of adjustment on all currently available models.  Can you name another scope with the same combination of features anywhere near the same price or of the same weight?  Also, keep in mind that all current models are 13.5" long, which is actually quite compact.

All in all, I think it is not a bad idea for Bushnell to add a higher end scope to their line-up.   While I can not predict how well it will do in the market, I do expect to try one.  I was nto all that hot on these scopes when they were announced, but after playing with them at SHOT I changed my opinion.

As for a low range variables,  I suspect that they are comfortable with a 1.5-4.5x32 1" tube scope in their Elite 3200 lineup (which has 6.3" mounting length, by the way) and 1.25-4x24 30mm scope in their Elite 4200 line-up (with 6.9" mounting length). 

I have a 1.25-4x24 Elite 4200 and find it an exceptionally nice scope.   It either has beefed up internals or somewhat oversize lenses.  The construction seems a bit different from other Elite 4200s.

I suspect straight-tube 1" scopes are a fairly small market.  So far I found exactly three people who are truly fond of the scopes of this type: Big Squeeze, Wally and me.  Wally has a Sightron S2 Big Sky 1.25-5x20 that is a superb piece in need of a thicker reticle.  Big Squeeze is leaning toward a Leupy VX-3, I think.  I am trying to petition SIghtron to put a thicker reticle into their Big SKy model.  Currently these are the 1" straight tube scopes available on the market (from worst to best):

Leupold VX-1 1-4x20
Pentax Gameseeker 1.75-5x20
Weaver V3 1-3x20
Nikon 1.5-4.5x20 (may have been discontinued)
Leupold VX-2 1-4x20
Leupold VX-3 1.5-5x20
Sightron S2 Big Sky 1.25-5x20

OK.  Seven different models covering a price range from ~$100 to ~$450 and roughly three potential customers.  If I were Bushnell I would not enter this market segment either.

ILya
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[/QUOTE] ......................A low powered variable DGR Zeiss 30mm scope starts at a grand!.................The DGR low powered variable Leupy VX3 is $399!.................The Leupy will do the same thing as the Zeiss, whether on the range, in Alaska, in Africa, or anywhere else and under any conditions!..................  [/QUOTE]
 
I disagree. My 1.1-4x24 Kahles is better in low light than my 1.5-5 Leupold by a substantial margin. The Kahles has very similar performance to the Zeiss.
 
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