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Most accurate out of the box Gun

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bricat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/01/2010 at 11:33

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bitterroot Bulls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/01/2010 at 13:14
.2 moa?

I must be doing something wrong.  I thought my 1/2 moa rifles were shooting well.  They do occasionally print a .2 3 shot group, though ... sometimes. 
-Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote budperm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/01/2010 at 15:27
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

Any gun is .2 moa if it has the right loads. 
 
Uhhh.... nope, not when you're talking about factory rifles.  The vast majority of factory rifle barrels will NEVER, EVER do .2 MOA on their best day, even if screwed into a rail gun and eliminate all human variables, no matter what you feed them.  The land and groove diameters and TIR tolerances on mass production factory hammer forged barrels are simply not held to tight enough tolerances to do that.  That is benchrest level, custom, hand lapped, 0.0002" TIR air gauged barrel territory.
 
???Any gun???  infers every gun and thats simply impossible.  Dale's feeling ornery!
This is obviously a ludicrous statement designed to start a heated hi volume debate!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonoMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/01/2010 at 16:02
I look at it as somewhat of a compromise. Out of the box tends to imply a mass-produced firearm and not something that costs $3-4K to own. I'm partial to the Remington 700 action and have had good luck with my .308s and the two H-S Precision stocks on them. But I also have a heavy-barreled Savage .22 and could see owning a Savage in another caliber...more than anything else out there.

Personally, I'd prefer to gamble on getting a good Rem. 5R. If it didn't shoot >.5 MOA after trying a few loads I'd sell it and try another similar rifle. In other words, you can do pretty well for a grand or under and have more money left for great optics. Not to knock custom builders or actions, but you really have to be after that last .1-.2 MOA to spend that kind of dough.


Reaction time is a factor...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/01/2010 at 16:09
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

Any gun is .2 moa if it has the right loads.
 
Yee Haw!! Even Daddy's squirrly rifle, Mr Dale??
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/01/2010 at 17:09
Since none of us has access to proper statistics, all we have to go on is anecdotal evidence.

In my personal experience, the most accurate "out-of-the-box: rifle I have ever shot is the DTA SRS in 338LM.  For what is costs it better be!

I have a heavy barrel Savage in 22-250 and it come out of the box shooting 1MOA or better with most factory loads and with my handloads.  I suspect that in the hands of a better shooter it would do better.

Same for my Tikka M695 in 280Rem.

On the other hand, I have some nearly 100 year old Finn-reworked Mosin-Nagants that shoot almost as well.

I have not had good luck with out of the box Remigntons, although they seem to make a good platform to work with.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote budperm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/01/2010 at 18:05
Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:

I look at it as somewhat of a compromise. Out of the box tends to imply a mass-produced firearm and not something that costs $3-4K to own. I'm partial to the Remington 700 action and have had good luck with my .308s and the two H-S Precision stocks on them. But I also have a heavy-barreled Savage .22 and could see owning a Savage in another caliber...more than anything else out there.

Personally, I'd prefer to gamble on getting a good Rem. 5R. If it didn't shoot >.5 MOA after trying a few loads I'd sell it and try another similar rifle. In other words, you can do pretty well for a grand or under and have more money left for great optics. Not to knock custom builders or actions, but you really have to be after that last .1-.2 MOA to spend that kind of dough.


well said!  I agree with that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/01/2010 at 21:27
right now my vanguard and my m70 both outshoot my m700, handily too i may add.
im really impressed with the howa actions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ed Connelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/02/2010 at 05:35
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

Any gun is .2 moa if it has the right loads. The only thing this post has shown is that a lot of shooters -- shot guns that come in boxes.  Oh by the way the most accurate out of the box rifle is a Sako TRG.
 
 
 
 
                                             
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/02/2010 at 07:27
Originally posted by Dale Clifford

Any gun is .2 moa if it has the right loads. 
 
Uhhh.... nope, not when you're talking about factory rifles.  The vast majority of factory rifle barrels will NEVER, EVER do .2 MOA on their best day, even if screwed into a rail gun and eliminate all human variables, no matter what you feed them.  The land and groove diameters and TIR tolerances on mass production factory hammer forged barrels are simply not held to tight enough tolerances to do that.  That is benchrest level, custom, hand lapped, 0.0002" TIR air gauged barrel territory.
 
 
Nope , just haven't found the right load yet, maybe its a reduced load,cast paper patch that eliminates the TIR tolerances,  -- yup it'l do er, if the shooter does his part, (eliminates the need for a solid bench rest).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 300S&W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/02/2010 at 07:29
  There are idividual rifles in every make that can be exceptionally accurate right out of the box.  I had a friend who,in the mid to late 80's,bought new rifles ALOT but didn't keep them long. So I'd have a chance to buy these if I wanted. All diff brands and calibers.  He would bring them to my place to use my range. Out of all,and they all shot decent,the one that was outstandingly accurate was a Model 70 XTR Sporter in .25-06.  I bought and still have it.
  Having said all that,and from what I've read in articles and on forums,I'll have to second Dale's choice of the Sako TRG as the rifle most consistently accurate right out of the box.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stickbow46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/02/2010 at 13:01

As far as I know,Anschutz .22lr out of the box has more gold & silver medals at world competitions in the last 75 yrs. than all rifles combined!

I own a 5r mil spec in .308 & I own a 1710D HB Annie sporter.I had to glass bed & do a trigger job on the 5r to equal the accuracy of the Annie out of the box.
 
I'm not the greatest shot in the world but with Eley black box or Tenex ammo out of the Annie I'll hang in there with the best at my club.
 
I'm not capable of shooting up to the potential of either of the above rifles but I sure enjoy trying to get there.
 
My comparrison distance wise is 55yds for .22lr/ 200yds for .308.I reload all my own .308 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/02/2010 at 13:56
++ on the Anshutz...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/02/2010 at 14:00
I'm not the greatest shot in the world but with Eley black box or Tenex ammo out of the Annie I'll hang in there with the best at my club.
Now there is a man who has found the right loads.
 
If you compare time of flight for 22lr against  308 out to 1000 yds, gives a good back drop for using the 22lr as long distance training using the 308
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/02/2010 at 18:31
+++ on the Anschutz.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ckk1106 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/03/2010 at 20:38
I've got a gun that's not 2 moa let alone .2 moa and I've tried every load.  Yes every load.Big Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/03/2010 at 20:49
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

Nope , just haven't found the right load yet, maybe its a reduced load,cast paper patch that eliminates the TIR tolerances,  -- yup it'l do er, if the shooter does his part, (eliminates the need for a solid bench rest).


Oh, I see, you were being sarcastic, right... with the obligatory "if the shooter does his part" part.Wink
I get it now.

Because as a knowledgeable shooter, you can't possibly believe that it's possible that all rifles are capable of .2 MOA, since that simply is not possible.   And, you surely know that barrel tolerances are predetermined production decisions made in the design stage for what range of dimensional variation is considered "good" in order to meet cost and manufacturability targets, not the measured result.  Whatever dimensional variations the bore actually checks cannot be "eliminated" without physically removing material, such as in lapping.  Though barrels definitely shoot some loads better than others, a good load will not make a silk purse out of a sow's ear and load optimization won't suddenly produce .2MOA accuracy out of a fundamentally bad tube.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/04/2010 at 01:03
I had one of those "bad tubes" with a Winchester Model 70 30-06.  Started out at about 8MOA, after a lot of work and babying, got it down to JUST on the edges of 1MOA... and that took fierce concentration... any letup and it was 1.5 to 2MOA.  That rifle is being rebarreled...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 300S&W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/04/2010 at 06:53
  To what?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonoMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/04/2010 at 10:19
Re: the Sako TRG. I'd say that any rifle starting @ $2700 better be a cut above the rest. A guy might do better to ask, "What's the best out-of-the-box rifle for less than $1200." $2700 starts getting into AI and MacMillan territory or even what one would pay for a decent custom build. I'd also take into account the overall package. What good is an expensive rifle with any weak link, such as cheap mounts or lesser optics?
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