New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - MOA or Mils
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Check GunBroker.com for SWFA's No Reserve and No Minimum bid firearm auctions.

MOA or Mils

 Post Reply Post Reply   Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options Page  1 2>
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2008 at 20:31
Crotchity View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper
Avatar

Joined: October/09/2007
Status: Offline
Points: 21
Another newbie question and I have done searches all over and cant find the answer.
 
Which is more precise MOA or Mils as in USO and S & B turret options.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2008 at 21:03
RONK View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: April/05/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3199
 
 Both are nothing more than measurements of ANGLE.
 
A Minute of Angle is 1/60 of a Degree. (360 Degrees in a Circle x 60 Minutes per Degree equals 21,600 Minutes of Angle in a full circle.)
 
 The Milliradin system of circle division is a different and unrelated system, dividing a Circle into 6400 equal parts. (Mils.)
 
 Therefore, to answer  your question, a Mil is roughly 3.6 times greater a unit of angular measurement, making the  M.O.A. more "precise", at least in theory.
 
 Clear it up any?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2008 at 08:53
Crotchity View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper
Avatar

Joined: October/09/2007
Status: Offline
Points: 21
Yes and no
 
Is 1/4 MOA more precise than 1/10 MIL?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2008 at 09:20
RONK View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: April/05/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3199
Originally posted by Crotchity Crotchity wrote:

Yes and no
 
Is 1/4 MOA more precise than 1/10 MIL?
 
 1/4 Moa =  .25 inches at a distance of 100 yards. (Not EXACTLY, but close enough for any practical purposes.)  (Be sure to note the decimal point in the first sentence.)
 
 1/10 Mil =  .36 inches at 100 yards. (Again not EXACTLY, but close enough for any practical purpose.) (Again, note the decimal point.)
 
 So, to answer your question, a 1/4 moa click will move your point of impact one-quarter inch at 100 yards.
 A 1/10 Mil. click will move your point of impact a bit more than one-third of an inch at 100 yards. (A greater distance, obviously)
 


Edited by RONK - January/12/2008 at 09:23
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2008 at 10:41
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight


Joined: July/04/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5087
is 1 mm more accurate than 00.125000 because it is in a different system. no the accuracy is not in the divisor but the degree of precision built into the instrument that is doing the system, so you quesion becomes is the degree in precision in the mechanical gearing better in the uso or in the S&B. you can get uso in mil or moa.
the confusion comes when a reticle is mil and the turrets are moa.
is direct faster- sure moa in uso or nf goes directly to turret dial in.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2008 at 11:03
RONK View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: April/05/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3199
 I understand what you are saying Dale, but I think the O.P. was simply asking which was a smaller or finer INCREMENT of adjustment at the turret. Hopefully he'll return with more questions or observations. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2008 at 11:16
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight


Joined: July/04/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5087
sure-- hope the info helps, but the finer adjustment doesn't mean that it is more precise.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2008 at 11:24
Mithran View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: April/04/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 310

Like Dale said in a thread close to this one both are just units of measurement.  No one is going to get you knats ass more accurate.  Their are scopes out there that have 1/8MOA adjustments but you'll be turning the turrets forever.  shooters have been doing it fine for a long time with 1/4MOA.  I agree the metric system is easier for math because everything is in 10's, however I've learned MOA so that's what I stick with.  I have a mil reticle however, but I remember that 1MIL=3.6MOA which I just say is 3.5MOA since it's easier to remember halves.  Get a mildot master and go here http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculations/traj/traj.html and print out a table for your rifle.  Just remember 3.5MOA= 1MIL for all your holds for wind and elevation and you can get a .308 out to 600 yards without touching your knobs.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2008 at 11:41
RONK View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: April/05/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3199
 
 The Mil System as used in riflescopes is NOT the Metric System.  Mil. is short for Milliradian, NOT Millimeter. As such, it is a measurement of angle, as is a Degree or a Minute of Angle, although a separate and unrelated system. It is  not a linear measurement such as an inch or a yard or a millimeter or a meter.
 By sheer coincidence it so happens that one miliradian subtends approximately one Decimeter (10 Centimeters or 100 Millimeters) at a distance of 100 meters, but it is coincidental and actually quite irrelevant.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2008 at 11:51
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight


Joined: July/04/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5087
sorry didn't mean to imply that it was, all i was saying that in standard scientific notation the degree of accuracy in any measurement depends on the decimal point and not the system as their will always be some transform that allows going between the two, (the easiest system would have been to use polar co-ordinates), . This gives the allusion that division by 10 or a metric system is more accurate and easier to use, while a fraction system allows for some interval p/q. (divisor of base 10 systems is always 1). -- 5 out of all 3 people find fractions difficult.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2008 at 12:29
RONK View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: April/05/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3199
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

sorry didn't mean to imply that it was, all i was saying that in standard scientific notation the degree of accuracy in any measurement depends on the decimal point and not the system as their will always be some transform that allows going between the two, (the easiest system would have been to use polar co-ordinates), . This gives the allusion that division by 10 or a metric system is more accurate and easier to use, while a fraction system allows for some interval p/q. (divisor of base 10 systems is always 1). -- 5 out of all 3 people find fractions difficult.
 
 And I didn't intend to sound as though I was correcting anyone; I tossed that out merely to address a common misconception about Milling systems in general.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2008 at 13:25
Crotchity View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper
Avatar

Joined: October/09/2007
Status: Offline
Points: 21
Okay I understand now and I think Ill go with MILs as I will be learning any way it whould be easier with the MILs. I enjoy shooting and will be getting a Alexander Arms 6.5 GSR Rifle with the following USO scope. This combination will be used for some long range paper punching (mostly plinking) from 600-1000 yrds.
 
Scope:
  • SN3-1750
  • T-Pal Left - Standard Option
  • 44mm T-Pal - Standard Option
  • 35mm Tube 
  • Matte Black - Std - Standard Option
  • EREK Metric
  • US#3 Metric
  • Mil-Scale MPR
  • 11 Pos Rheostat (Red) (Just to have)
  • Standard Housing - Standard Option
  • Rapid Focus - Standard Option

    Accessories:

  • 44mm Fixed 4" Sunshade
  • Polarizer/ARD
  • Rheostat Cover
  • I hope this will get out to 1000 with a 20 MOA base.

    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2008 at 13:52
    Dale Clifford View Drop Down
    Optics Jedi Knight
    Optics Jedi Knight


    Joined: July/04/2004
    Location: United States
    Status: Offline
    Points: 5087
    sounds like a lot fun, let us know how it works out.
    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2008 at 14:09
    RONK View Drop Down
    Optics Master Extraordinaire
    Optics Master Extraordinaire
    Avatar

    Joined: April/05/2007
    Location: United States
    Status: Offline
    Points: 3199
     
    What is a 6.5GSR, anyway?
    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2008 at 15:05
    Dale Clifford View Drop Down
    Optics Jedi Knight
    Optics Jedi Knight


    Joined: July/04/2004
    Location: United States
    Status: Offline
    Points: 5087
    its a model of mitsubishi lancer-- just kidding-the forum did this same thing on Dodge colts awhile back.
    alexander arms has a cartridge called the 6.5 grendel . or necked down 7.9x36 case. Koshkin has one, I think, meant to give the ar15 platform better long range abilities.
    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2008 at 17:13
    RONK View Drop Down
    Optics Master Extraordinaire
    Optics Master Extraordinaire
    Avatar

    Joined: April/05/2007
    Location: United States
    Status: Offline
    Points: 3199
    Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

    its a model of mitsubishi lancer-- just kidding-the forum did this same thing on Dodge colts awhile back.
    alexander arms has a cartridge called the 6.5 grendel . or necked down 7.9x36 case. Koshkin has one, I think, meant to give the ar15 platform better long range abilities.

     You mean 7.62 x 39?  If so, I don't think you have a real great 1000 yard cartridge there.

    I'd be surprised if that case has enough powder capacity to drive the long, heavy, high B.C. bullets needed for decent performance at that range, fast enough to keep them stable.  Anybody here know differently?
    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2008 at 20:15
    Crotchity View Drop Down
    Optics GrassHopper
    Optics GrassHopper
    Avatar

    Joined: October/09/2007
    Status: Offline
    Points: 21
    With a 123g Lapua Sencar the round stays supersonic out to 1200 yds and has more energy then a 308 at 600 yds and beyond. I read that some where but cant find right now.
     
    Does anyone think with that type of ballistics and with that set up Ill need a 20 MOA base?
    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2008 at 20:39
    RONK View Drop Down
    Optics Master Extraordinaire
    Optics Master Extraordinaire
    Avatar

    Joined: April/05/2007
    Location: United States
    Status: Offline
    Points: 3199
    Originally posted by Crotchity Crotchity wrote:

    With a 123g Lapua Sencar the round stays supersonic out to 1200 yds and has more energy then a 308 at 600 yds and beyond. I read that some where but cant find right now.
     
    Does anyone think with that type of ballistics and with that set up Ill need a 20 MOA base?
     
     
     Well, I think you want a 20 minute base to keep the optical advantage that is more inherent at the center of the scope's optical elements than it is at the edges.  That was a rather clumsy way of saying yes, you should get one.
      I'll have to research it, but I remain skeptical that any round based on a 7.62x39mm case will out- perform a 168 MatchKing or similar from a .308 at similar pressures, at least in the energy department.
    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2008 at 21:15
    Dale Clifford View Drop Down
    Optics Jedi Knight
    Optics Jedi Knight


    Joined: July/04/2004
    Location: United States
    Status: Offline
    Points: 5087
    opps sorry ----- ya an ak case. alexander arms makes most of the claims. 168 grs aren't real good at 1000 yds either, but the real challenge will be getting the ar in any caliber to do the deed. As I recall Alex. arms says it comes closer to the 308 at these ranges than it does to the .223. Out of my ar10t a 168 shows 1790 fps left. and 14 moa of drop (100 yd zero) and my6.5 x284 at the same comparison shows 2085 fps and 8 moa drop at 2900 fps. launch. So slowing down to around 2500 fps would just about do it.  
    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2008 at 21:22
    Dale Clifford View Drop Down
    Optics Jedi Knight
    Optics Jedi Knight


    Joined: July/04/2004
    Location: United States
    Status: Offline
    Points: 5087
    a .264 at 120 with launch at 2700 fps and bc of only.5 will dup 168 at 600 yds.
    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/13/2008 at 13:39
    RONK View Drop Down
    Optics Master Extraordinaire
    Optics Master Extraordinaire
    Avatar

    Joined: April/05/2007
    Location: United States
    Status: Offline
    Points: 3199
     
     Okay, I guess I shouldn't be too surprised that it can run that far. Afterall, a .223 can, with the right bullet, outperform many .308 loads in wind at that range and they have even less case capacity than the 7.62x39 case.
      Dale -you are certainly correct about the 168 grain bullet being less than optimum at long range in the .308.  The 180s and 190s are definately better ballistically. My point was that the 123 grain bullet in .264 is also far from ballistically anywhere near a 160 in that caliber, and I just pulled the well-known 168  gr. 308 bullet out of the hat for the sake of comparison.
     
     Edited to add: I'm conceding only the velocity and wind bucking abilities at this point. I still think the .308 will have the energy advantage most of the time, depending on the exact load. Not that energy is even a factor for punching paper. Also, I looked up the 123 grain Scenar bullet in the .264 caliber.  It has a very impressive Ballistic Coefficient of .547.  I expected a much lower value... I'll have to look into this round further.  I bet it's a hoot to shoot, (can't have any real recoil), and probably easy to reload, too.


    Edited by RONK - January/13/2008 at 14:14
    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/13/2008 at 14:18
    RONK View Drop Down
    Optics Master Extraordinaire
    Optics Master Extraordinaire
    Avatar

    Joined: April/05/2007
    Location: United States
    Status: Offline
    Points: 3199

    Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

    opps sorry ----- ya an ak case. alexander arms makes most of the claims. 168 grs aren't real good at 1000 yds either, but the real challenge will be getting the ar in any caliber to do the deed. As I recall Alex. arms says it comes closer to the 308 at these ranges than it does to the .223. Out of my ar10t a 168 shows 1790 fps left. and 14 moa of drop (100 yd zero) and my6.5 x284 at the same comparison shows 2085 fps and 8 moa drop at 2900 fps. launch. So slowing down to around 2500 fps would just about do it.  

     Re: the part I highlighted in red;  I assume these are 600 yard values?
    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2008 at 11:06
    Dale Clifford View Drop Down
    Optics Jedi Knight
    Optics Jedi Knight


    Joined: July/04/2004
    Location: United States
    Status: Offline
    Points: 5087
    ya 600, the grendel makes sense in an ar15 because of magazine length, but in a bolt there are better selections.
    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2008 at 11:40
    Critter View Drop Down
    Optics Apprentice
    Optics Apprentice
    Avatar

    Joined: April/20/2004
    Status: Offline
    Points: 56
    So then, does anybody here know the difference between the words ACCURACY and PRECISION.
     
    What is the difference between an accurate rifle and a precise rifle?
    Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2008 at 11:42
    Dale Clifford View Drop Down
    Optics Jedi Knight
    Optics Jedi Knight


    Joined: July/04/2004
    Location: United States
    Status: Offline
    Points: 5087
    accurate is being able to hit what you are aiming at, the process allows for errors cancelling errors--- precision is the ability of the combination to repeat itself with the smallest statistical deviation.
     Post Reply Post Reply Page  1 2>
      Share Topic   

    Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

    Similar Threads: "MOA or Mils"
    Subject Author Forum Replies Last Post
    small/light with mil/mil or moa/moa c670809 Rimfire / Airgun 4
    Mil/Mil or MOA/MOA Anton Chigurh Rifle Scopes 4
    mil/mil vs mil/moa kgriff Tactical Scopes 31
    MOA/MOA or MIL/MIL Bitterroot Bulls Tactical Scopes 26
    New Sightron mil/mil and moa/moa scopes Chris Farris Tactical Scopes 22
    FFP - Mil/Mil -MOA/MRAD Flanny Tactical Scopes 15
    Mils / MOA and The Range Estimation Equations Bags Rifle Scopes 0
    why a mil instead of moa for a Vortex PST 1-4x cruft Rifle Scopes 4
    Mils / MOA and the Range Estimation Equations Bags Tactical Scopes 22
    MOA vs MIL Chart Chris Farris Tactical Scopes 28


    This page was generated in 0.484 seconds.