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MOA or Mil?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 05:35
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Hi guys new to the forum here, been lurking for a week or so and decided its time to join. My question is im looking for some new glass to top off my AR50 but im torn between, MOA and Mil's. I have never used a mil dot scope before and after reading up on them, i do say i like the simplicity of them, but i also really like the finer adjustments of the 1/4moa turrets. What do you guys think? I will be using this rifle from 100-1000+yards and everything in between. The scope im looking at has a mil dot reticle and the option for either mil or moa turrets. like i said im stuck. I would like to hear some opinions from the mil users out there or anybody really that could give me a good comparison/ advise on the subject. Thanks
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 06:47
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"...so now less than 5 years later you can go up on a steep hill in las vegas and look west, and with the right kind of glasses you can almost see the high-water mark...that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back...h.t. raoul duke...zp...

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 08:44
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doesn't matter-- but the reticle and the dial should be the same, moa/moa or mil/mil . I doubt if you will be able to hold your 50 to moa adjustments, also the cal is larger than the adjustment so its not as critical as say a .224, where you can see the adjustment in 1/8 or 1/4 moa . shooting a 50 under 500 yds is sorta of anti-climatic.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 08:57
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

doesn't matter-- but the reticle and the dial should be the same, moa/moa or mil/mil . I doubt if you will be able to hold your 50 to moa adjustments, also the cal is larger than the adjustment so its not as critical as say a .224, where you can see the adjustment in 1/8 or 1/4 moa . shooting a 50 under 500 yds is sorta of anti-climatic.

That's for sure...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 09:40
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http://www.mil-dot.com/Content%20Images/The_Derivation_of_the_Range_Estimation_Equations.pdf

Some reading for your spare time.  

At 1000 yards, IF your turret adjustments are EXACT, a .25MOA turret will adjust approximately 2.6 inches per click, a .1mil turret will adjust 3.6inches per click and if your scope is of good quality, it will be consistent and therefore manageable, 1 inch difference.  Wind, altitude, baro pressure, temp will all potentially create bigger variations than that...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 17:35
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Mil adjustments are only about a third more coarse...really not enough to matter. But as it has been pointed out, what really matters is having a reticle that matches the turrets.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 17:37
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Whichever you use, learn it well, and stick with it if you can.

It really sucks to make mil adjustments on an MOA scope, but you'll probably only do it once.  Or, if you mix and match mils and MOAs, probably not.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 17:55
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Was ther a sale on 50 BMG's that I missed or something Whatever
 
We've had all these guys that have never owned a scope or a 22 rifle before that all of a sudden bought a 50BMG sniper rifle last year Shocked.
 
MIL/ MIL    if you can get mil based clicks you should do so it makes dialing in correction easier you measure with the mil dot reticle and adjust in 1/10 mil clicks.
 
Be careful what is behind what you shoot at !!!!
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 20:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 20:41
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Thanks for the info guys. I was told by a local gun store employee that the .1mil adjustments were significantly larger movements than 1/4moa, while trying to push some cheep scope down my throaght
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 20:51
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Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

Was ther a sale on 50 BMG's that I missed or something Whatever
 
We've had all these guys that have never owned a scope or a 22 rifle before that all of a sudden bought a 50BMG sniper rifle last year Shocked.
 
MIL/ MIL    if you can get mil based clicks you should do so it makes dialing in correction easier you measure with the mil dot reticle and adjust in 1/10 mil clicks.
 
Be careful what is behind what you shoot at !!!!
 
 
Ok so if I asked the same question for my .458win mag, or .470NE would you give the same response?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2009 at 21:40
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YES Be careful what is behind what you shoot at !!!!  I would always suggest you know your target and know what is behind it - no matter what rifle caliber you select to shoot - understanding the balistics of the rifle makes a difference in your neighbors staying alive.   You are responsible civil and criminally for every bullet you shoot.  
 
We have had a real rash of people asking about scopes for their new 50 BMG the last few months and a lot were guys who really didnt have much rifle time on any caliber - somewhat obvious from the questions they asked about optics.
 
Both MOA  minutes of angle and Mil are measurements of an angle starting from your eye they become wider as they go further away.
1moa is 1 inch at 100yds   1moa is 2 inches at 200 yds,  1moa is 3 inches at 300 yds, 1moa is 10 inches at 1000 yds
1/4moa is  1/4 inch at 100 yds  and 1/10 mil is about 1/3 inch at 100 yds
 1 mil is 3.6 inches at 100 yds ,  1  mil is 36 inches at 1000 yds.
 
http://www.snipercentral.com/50bmg.htm      50BMG balistics


Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - December/14/2009 at 21:45
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2009 at 10:22
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In 2008 I bought a Leica 1200 CRF from SWFA and started ranging everything.
And at age 57 I finally shot my first deer. I shot (3) deer: at 400 yards [buttshot], 500 [lungshot], and 400 [up the spine shot]. But I missed 13 shots at the elk at 625 yards.
I was using hold over with a 2X scope that I practiced with a 100 yards.

In 2009 I was using the elevation turret on a 7X and a chart [I made from Quickload] of yard vs moa and wind vs moa at ranges. I practiced at 400 and 500 yards.


This year at age 58, I killed (5) more deer with (7) shots at 350 [livershot], 400 [missed due to wind and then heart shot], 350 [lungshot], 350 [lungshot], 510 [I knocked it down, but it got back up and ran away], and 400 [head shot].

I think that mil vs moa is like Ford vs Chevy, table saw vs radial arm saw, etc.
What every you are accustomed to will work.




Edited by Clark - December/15/2009 at 10:23
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2009 at 10:53
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Originally posted by Clark Clark wrote:

In 2008 I bought a Leica 1200 CRF from SWFA and started ranging everything.
And at age 57 I finally shot my first deer. I shot (3) deer: at 400 yards [buttshot], 500 [lungshot], and 400 [up the spine shot]. But I missed 13 shots at the elk at 625 yards.
I was using hold over with a 2X scope that I practiced with a 100 yards.

In 2009 I was using the elevation turret on a 7X and a chart [I made from Quickload] of yard vs moa and wind vs moa at ranges. I practiced at 400 and 500 yards.


This year at age 58, I killed (5) more deer with (7) shots at 350 [livershot], 400 [missed due to wind and then heart shot], 350 [lungshot], 350 [lungshot], 510 [I knocked it down, but it got back up and ran away], and 400 [head shot].

I think that mil vs moa is like Ford vs Chevy, table saw vs radial arm saw, etc.
What every you are accustomed to will work.


Get Your Popcorn Ready
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2009 at 11:27
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As I stated earlier, there is extra math/calculation, and some potential for confusion, involved in "mixing" MOA and mil graduations.  The most common mix is a mil-dot reticle with MOA turrets.  The best solution, always, is mil/mil or MOA/MOA.  Which is "best"?... kind of like asking "which is the BEST scope"...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2009 at 11:48
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Mil dot master solves the mil reticle/MOA turret issue, but you gotta have it on hand.

Adjusting fire with the mil reticle is only really useful if the reticle is FFP.

The suggestion of doing mil/mil or MOA/MOA is generally a good one, but far from necessary.

As kickboxer says, there is no "right" answer here, some like one thing, other like something else.  Get what works best for you.

I'm moving more toward mil adjustments, MOA works fine but I have more experience with mil reticles and it simplifies things to have a mil turret.

I've not found the .36inch at 100 yard clicks to be any big issue compared to .25inch at 100 yard clicks of a MOA.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2009 at 12:07
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As has been said, since both are measurements of angle, it doesn't matter for most people which system is used. But mixing MOA turrets with a mil reticle is like putting a Chevy transmission in your Ford truck. It's a useless argument in some ways because it really takes some practice to range with a reticle and the most serious flaw in any reticle ranging system I know of is not knowing the exact size of the object being ranged. I would not take a shot over 300 yards on a game animal without using a rangefinder and a drop table derived from a good ballistics calculator and field-tested at the range. Since those tools give you a precise distance (although keep slope in mind!) and tell you the drop in whatever units you choose, any scope can work. My NF is mis-matched (and I don't know if it's worth $320 to "fix" that). So it works fine. But if I depended solely on the scope to make those estimates, it would suck to have to convert between mils and MOA, especially in your head. Even a small error will result in a miss.

It is nice with a matching scope to be able to dial in corrections based on angle, e.g. if the reticle tells you you are off 1.5 mils, it doesn't matter how far you are way from the target, you just dial in 1.5 mils and fire again. Just to ensure resale value I'd match them up if you are getting an expensive scope. Otherwise, you will eliminate a fraction (small as it may be) of potential buyers.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2009 at 12:42
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same based reticle and drop configurations have their greatest advantage when communications between team members is part of the drill. image a spotter calling out mil adjustments to a moa shooter, (and to some extent ffp also). if your a single shooter it really doesn't matter that much> If your using hold over in the reticle whether mil or moa it matters even less. most print out from ballistic programs will give moa and mil just change columns.
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