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MOA needed for 1000 yards

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/07/2009 at 22:57
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Can someone help, I see many links requiring me to fill in detailed load info on MOA needed for 1000 yards. My scope has 52 MOA internal adjustement, with a 20 MOA base and zeroed at 100 yds, can I hit 1000??
 
165-175 G hpbt's 308 cal or similar
 
ThanksExcellent
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/07/2009 at 23:09
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For a 308 with 175 SMK with M118 LR velocities, typically you would 42 MOA.
 
100-200;     2 MOA
200-300;     3 MOA
300-500;     8 MOA
500-600;     5 MOA
600-1000; 24 MOA
 
Total          42 MOA
 
HTH
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/07/2009 at 23:11
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so I should be fine with 52 MOA plus 20 MOA Base but it will be tight?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/07/2009 at 23:25
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Personally,  I think you'll need a little more help.  More info on your setup would be good.  
Depends on how good your mounting is.  If you get everything perfect, you should be OK, but you don't have much margin for error.  


Edited by Kickboxer - February/07/2009 at 23:31
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/07/2009 at 23:35
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So I have a 52 MOA Nikon Monarch X 4-16x50. This should give me 25 MOA up and 25 down. Put on a 20 MOA base and I will have 45 up with a few MOA to spare? I plan to shoot 168 gr hpbt
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/07/2009 at 23:50
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If your mount and internal adjustment is "perfect", you actually have 26 up and down after mounting, with the 20 MOA base, you should have a little margin.  Maybe 7 or 8 MOA.  That assumes you are pushing your 168gr hpbt at fairly standard velocity around 2650-2700fpsMV.  It is less than I would like, but livable.  A 25-30 MOA base with a 200yd zero would be better for long range.  With a 200yd zero you would only be about 2in high at 100.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2009 at 00:01
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More info. Things like typical humidity, Altitude, Velocity. There is the easy answer which is yes you can get that far out by combining the click ups, and the holdover value for the reticles subtension at the used power range, and rezero the rifle for 200 yards. I say this because the closer you get to bottom, the less you will have adjustment for windage. Also bare in mind that depending on how well your scope zeroed windage wise, you may not even have the clicks you expect to be there. 26 up and down is dependent upon the center of the windage zero. If it is very close to being dead nuts than you will have most of your available come ups. If not, then you will not have them.
The Monarch X is a great scope, it isn't what I call long range friendly. The limited adjustment range makes the work for accomplishing long range shooting a bit more encompassing. Typically (for that scope) you would want a 25 or even a 30 moa base if you are going to be very serious about doing a fair amount of shooting at various distances on out to 1000 yards.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2009 at 00:06
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I only have a 600yd range at my club, but I may go to the 1000yd range on the other side of town once or twice a year. our sniper match does not exceed 600yd so it is not that important to shoot at it all the time, only to be capable of it if needed..
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2009 at 10:54
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It sounds like you want a scope that will shoot a 308/7.62mm 168 BTHP from 100 to 1000 yards.  Well, having been down this road, what you need is a scope with plenty of internal elevation.  Otherwise, with offset bases and rings you’re going to use the full spectrum of your adjustments.  In my experience, mechanical devices have a sweet spot and may not be so good on the outer fringes of adjustment, YMMV.

 

Also, FWIW, a SMK 175 is a lot better than a 168 BTHP at 1000 yards.  The 168 is good out to about 800 but after that it goes sub-sonic and array.

 

Also, the numbers I provided are approximate (+ or -).

 

Good luck.

 

Jim White

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2009 at 11:13
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Thanks everyone, looks like I will just shoot it until it lets me down and I am forced to move in a new direction.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2009 at 11:16
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Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

  A 25-30 MOA base with a 200yd zero would be better for long range.  


If his scope only has 50MOA of total adjustment, a 25MOA or more would be bad. 


Why set up a 1,000-yard gun that will only see 1,000 yards twice a year at most?  Have you ever shot at 1,000 yards?

I'd say keep the 20MOA base, figure out the 600-yard shot, then use the reticle to adjust for the rest. If your mounting isn't perfect and your internals aren't dead-on; with a 25 or 30MOA base, you will run out of adjustment room on the horizontal axis, which will severely limit your adjustment on the vertical.  Also, scopes in the mid-price range don't do particularly well at the extremes of their adjustment range (at least that has been my experience.)

It isn't what you'll want to hear, but I'd recommend a scope made more for long-range target shooting.  If yours is a Monarch like the one I had, that reticle will cover allot'o target at 1,000 yards.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2009 at 11:46
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Thanks Cy and RC for pointing out scope limitations. Hunterco sounds like me as far as trying to get everything a scope or rifle has to offer, even alittle more when we can. But like you both said the Monarch is a great scope for the $ but it would not be my choice for 1K unless ofcourse it is what I had and no plans to buy another. I think what Hunterco is going to find is that beyond 600yds. He's not going be happy with consistancy. Like RC said when you go to the limits of adjustment the scope isn't going to be so reliable. That is why I am looking at a Kahles multi-zero, Tactical IOR and US Optics for my next purchase. Scopes that are built with adjustment in mind. 
Hunterco by all means start with the Monarch and see what you can get out of it. I'd really like to know what you can get in consistant range adjustment. Then if in fact you find that you need something else you will still be sharp and on track concerning shooting discipline and how much adjustment to look for in a new scope. Good luck and let us know how things go.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2009 at 12:17
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To all,
 
One reason I'm familiar with what hunterco desires is because I tried it with a Nikon Monarch 6.5-20x44 (dot reticle).  Nice scope, but it's not going to make him happy if he wants to go to far beyond 600 yards with a 308.  Its a nice scope but I'm afraid its not going to do what he desires.  Now, if he had a 22-250, 220 Swift, 243 Winchester or say a 260 Remington (all will shoot from a 308 bolt head) then it may have enough adjustment to accomodate 100 to 1000 yds of shooting for him.
 
Another case he's going to be disappointed is with the 168 SMK @ 1000 yds.  Just not enough horsepower to get it there from a 308 and stay super-sonic.
 
Been there, done that....
 
HTH
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2009 at 13:00
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

  A 25-30 MOA base with a 200yd zero would be better for long range.  


If his scope only has 50MOA of total adjustment, a 25MOA or more would be bad. 


Why set up a 1,000-yard gun that will only see 1,000 yards twice a year at most?  Have you ever shot at 1,000 yards?

I'd say keep the 20MOA base, figure out the 600-yard shot, then use the reticle to adjust for the rest. If your mounting isn't perfect and your internals aren't dead-on; with a 25 or 30MOA base, you will run out of adjustment room on the horizontal axis, which will severely limit your adjustment on the vertical.  Also, scopes in the mid-price range don't do particularly well at the extremes of their adjustment range (at least that has been my experience.)

It isn't what you'll want to hear, but I'd recommend a scope made more for long-range target shooting.  If yours is a Monarch like the one I had, that reticle will cover allot'o target at 1,000 yards.
The answer lies in using the entire reticle. (both above and below center cross) Like I said to accomplish this distance using the Monarch requires an all encompassing effort. Including knowing the values for the reticle at all powers.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2009 at 13:11
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Originally posted by tjtjwdad tjtjwdad wrote:

 
Another case he's going to be disappointed is with the 168 SMK @ 1000 yds.  Just not enough horsepower to get it there from a 308 and stay super-sonic.
 
Been there, done that....
 
HTH
 
Did you ever try any 155gr. Lapua Scenar's out to 1000?
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2009 at 14:24
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cheaptrick,
 
I never tried the Lapua 155 but I did try the Sierra Palma 155 in a M14 @ 1000 yds with open sights.  I shot a 190-5x with it using push/pull ball ammo.  I feel with attention to cases, primers etc... it would do quite well.  I did check run-out and I only used those with .001 or less. 
 
I felt it was more luck than anything else because (at 1000 yds) the rear sight is so far in the air it gets tough with sight alignment because the apature is not perfectly round at that point. 
 
For those who have never tried 1000 yd shooting with a M1 or M14 you're in for a treat.  Frustrating?  Yeah, but it beats a day doing yard work anytime.
 
Jim
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2009 at 15:24
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Originally posted by Sgt. D Sgt. D wrote:

That is why I am looking at a Kahles multi-zero, Tactical IOR and US Optics for my next purchase. Scopes that are built with adjustment in mind. 




I have a USO listed on teh "optics for sale" forum, just in case you feel the need.  It is a great scope for 1,000+ yard shots and can go from 100 yard zero to 1,000 shot with less than one full revolution of the elevation dial.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread, just letting you know the option is out there.

Carry on.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2009 at 15:58
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168 gr smk were designed for optimun accuracy around 600 yds, and the 175s are more forgiving in terms of reloading error.  the 168 are still above the speed of  sound at 1000 yds -- still around 1.5 mach but usually have more yaw. from the following table your looking at about 29 moa so with a 20 moa base and the freedom you have in that scope you should get to 1000 yds, but at 100 yds there will be little sweet spot left. used a  very conservative number for bc in this calculation
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2009 at 16:24
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Depending on your rifle 168 matchkings might be unstable past about 900-950 yards.
You haven't said what barrel length and manufacture, factory ammo or handloads so there's much supposition here.
 
175 smk at 270 fps @ 1000 asl are 35.25 moa average over a temp spectrum of + 40 to     + 125f and station pressures of 28.45 to 29.85 Hg.
175 smk at 2600 are 36.75 moa average over the same temp/pressure spectrum.
190smk at 2650 is 34.25 average moa same same.
Altitude is in your favor.  If you're in Seattle Washington it will require more elevation than you might have available.
If you're in Red Lodge Montana you'll need less.
 
More rifle/load info is needed to properly answer accurately.
Bottom line is that if you really are going to shoot 1000 yards anywhere but the internet you need more scope.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2009 at 16:59
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Originally posted by Mike McDonald Mike McDonald wrote:

Depending on your rifle 168 matchkings might be unstable past
Bottom line is that if you really are going to shoot 1000 yards anywhere but the internet you need more scope.
 
Yep...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2009 at 17:03
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Dale,
 
In the pits, we could always tell by the 1st shot down range (as long as it didn't ground out before the target) who had enough velocity and who didn't.  The folks with the 168's the sound wasn't the usual "crack" but more like a plop and an oblong (keyhole) hole in the target.
 
By the way, on another post I saw you (I believe it was you) had a Leupold 6.5-20x40, w/SF & varmint,  How dou you like that model of scope, been thinking about getting on myself.
 
Jim
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2009 at 21:03
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Boy, you opened up a can of worms, didn't you??  1000 yards is asking allot from a 308, but it can be done. If 600 yards is your home range, then that's all you really need to worry about. At 600 yards you should be able to make 4 out of 5 head shots on a single perp target with a good spotter. If your spotter can read the trace there's no reason you should miss the next 4 head shots.
 
RM
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2009 at 21:55
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RC,
 I don't disagree a lot with what you had to say other than that I was trying to answer HIS question, not yours.
Fully agree that if he purchased your US Optics scope, he would be MUCH better off.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/09/2009 at 01:45
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Originally posted by Mike McDonald Mike McDonald wrote:

If you're in Seattle Washington it will require more elevation than you might have available. If you're in Red Lodge Montana you'll need less.

Holy crap, you must be stalking me! 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/09/2009 at 09:16
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

  A 25-30 MOA base with a 200yd zero would be better for long range.  


If his scope only has 50MOA of total adjustment, a 25MOA or more would be bad. 


Why set up a 1,000-yard gun that will only see 1,000 yards twice a year at most?  Have you ever shot at 1,000 yards?

I'd say keep the 20MOA base, figure out the 600-yard shot, then use the reticle to adjust for the rest. If your mounting isn't perfect and your internals aren't dead-on; with a 25 or 30MOA base, you will run out of adjustment room on the horizontal axis, which will severely limit your adjustment on the vertical.  Also, scopes in the mid-price range don't do particularly well at the extremes of their adjustment range (at least that has been my experience.)

It isn't what you'll want to hear, but I'd recommend a scope made more for long-range target shooting.  If yours is a Monarch like the one I had, that reticle will cover allot'o target at 1,000 yards.
I just read this whole post.  You need to lay off the rancid and the coolaid, dude.  He was asking about a scope he had in hand not one someone may potentially sell him. 
Yes, in wind conditions, windage adjustment range will be poor, but I hold for wind more than I dial, anyway.  Comes from shooting M1's and M14's at a thousand yards with iron sights.  His mechanical zero will be at about 25-26 minutes on that scope (if it is perfectly in line with advertised range).  However, given all the environmental effects, altitude, etc, for that round at 1000 yds, he would need about 40-43 minutes of elevation.  With a 25 MOA rail, he would have a little left.  A 30 MOA rail would provide some margin.  Cheek weld will be impacted by the increased height above the bore, but a cheekpad or adjustable stock will take care of that. 
It is not my business to ask him why he wants to make a long shot once or twice a year.  That is his business. 
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