New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Mils and Moa Explained
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Check GunBroker.com for SWFA's No Reserve and No Minimum bid firearm auctions.

Mils and Moa Explained

 Post Reply Post Reply   Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2008 at 08:55
Bags View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: April/26/2007
Status: Offline
Points: 24
There's a lot of confusion on "mils" and "moa". What really is a "mil". Is it based on 6283.2 mils (Marine) in a circle or 6400 mils (Army)? Same thing with moa vs "shooters" moa. Are the distance equations all the same?

Because I couldn't find a one source document on all these, I wrote a paper that discusses mathematically all these things and more. It is a revision of one that I did last year but this time I incorporated the Army mil (6400) and "shooters" moa. Plus I derived all the distance equations. I also cleaned it up a bit.

Plus last page has a Quick Reference Chart.

It's meant to be a one source document for any questions you might have and the whole thing doesn't have to be read front to back.

I'm not good at making web pages, so the best I could do is the link below (the web site doesn't accept hot links), so you have to cut and paste. Any suggestions on how I could post this on-line at a better place would be appreciated. Bags


Link ( site doesn't accept hot links unfortunately so you have to cut and paste).

http://bags.0catch.com/1A_The_Derivation_of_the_Range_Estimation_Equations.doc

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2008 at 09:50
Bigdaddy0381 View Drop Down
Optics God
Optics God
Avatar
Georgia peach

Joined: February/27/2007
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 12816

This is another awesome site that tells about mill-dots also.

 
 
nice work on your site
 
BD
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2008 at 10:04
Bags View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: April/26/2007
Status: Offline
Points: 24
Thanks. Yes that is a good sight. My original paper is at the top of that sight under "An In Depth Study" .
 
Thanks Bags
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2008 at 10:10
Bags View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: April/26/2007
Status: Offline
Points: 24

Update:

O.K. Here are the results of my phone calls to Leupold, Nightforce, Schmidt & Bender, U.S. Optics, S.W.F.A and Bushnell Optics.

Before I get into my great conversation with U.S. Optics, here are the results:

They all use “real” mathematical millradians, (which is 3.6 inches at 100 yards based on 6283.2 mils per circle) for their reticles.

Except for one, they also all use “true” Moa (1.047 inches at 100 yards) for their reticle spacings.

U.S. Optics, who were very helpful, say’s they make their scopes in real “mils”, but make most of their “moa” scopes in “shooters” moa (1 inch at 100 yards). They do sell a “true” moa scope also for those who want it.

Their refurbishing of the Unertl scopes also reveled that the original Unertl scopes were in “real” mils (3.6 inches at 100 yards). That is how U.S. Optics makes their scopes now.

Therefore, since my paper is for “Rifle” shooters, Snipers, Tactical shooters (and not artillery persons) I will change my paper to reflect only the “real” millradians and both “true” and “shooters” moa.

I want this paper to be a one source, definitive, accurate guide to “mils” and “moa” for shooters and to finally put the controversy to rest.
 
I revised my paperto reflect this.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2008 at 18:47
Bags View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: April/26/2007
Status: Offline
Points: 24
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2008 at 01:02
medic52 View Drop Down
Optics Professional
Optics Professional
Avatar

Joined: October/05/2006
Location: Missouri
Status: Offline
Points: 893
THANK YOU for the link... Owe you a Beer
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/04/2008 at 20:39
mattfetz View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper
Avatar

Joined: April/04/2008
Location: Pa
Status: Offline
Points: 5
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/29/2009 at 12:56
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Resident Redneck

Joined: June/20/2005
Location: Iowa
Status: Offline
Points: 13868
Originally posted by mattfetz mattfetz wrote:

http://www.shooterready.com/
Good link.  As for the "Long Range Shooting Simulation" CD  mentioned above I have it and like it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2009 at 22:26
Clark View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/13/2004
Location: Near Seattle
Status: Offline
Points: 120
The way I look at it 1 moa is ~ 1" at 100  yards, and ~2" at 200 yards.
A milliradian [ one thousandth of a circle divided by  two pi] of is 3.6 inches at 100 yards.

So an moa is 1" at 100  yards and a milliradian is 0.36" at 100 yards.

My eye can see ~ 1 moa, so if a scope is fist focal plane, I can barely see the hatch marks on the tactical reticle at 1X or 2X if they are 1 moa.

So my eye can barely see .1 milliradians with 7X or 14X

I can see .5 milliradian marks on the reticle over the target on 2X magnification, but that is an all out eye exam effort.

What is easiest for me is to look at the target with the range finder [A Lecia CRF1200 from SWFA and it works great], say it says 500 yards, then I look at my print out from Quicklaod that says with that bullet at that velocity, zero'd at 200 yards and the scope 2" above the bore, then I need 40" elevation or 7.8 moa.
I then either aim 3' over the lung shot or I turn the elevation knob on the scope up 7.5 or 8 moa.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2009 at 22:28
Clark View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/13/2004
Location: Near Seattle
Status: Offline
Points: 120
Originally posted by Clark Clark wrote:



So an moa is 1" at 100  yards and a milliradian is 0.36" at 100 yards.
 


That should be 0.1 milliradians is 0.36" at 100 yards, if this thing had an edit function.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2009 at 22:33
rifle looney View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: November/21/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 2553
Clark, you can edit using the post options at the right.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2009 at 22:36
Clark View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/13/2004
Location: Near Seattle
Status: Offline
Points: 120
I do not think I get that function until I reach 50 posts.

I did write a poem:

http://www.thegunzone.com/gunwriter.html

Quote
The 'Popular' View of the Gunzine Game… some doggerel from Clark Magnuson:
Those that write the gun rag pages
Make it up, but pose as sages
Those who think that it's all true
Pay the bills to print more poo

Even worse are the reviews
Pay for adds is pay'n dues
If per chance you didn't pay
It ain't so good what we will say


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/06/2009 at 22:38
Clark View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/13/2004
Location: Near Seattle
Status: Offline
Points: 120
Whoops, I did not get the html right.

http://www.thegunzone.com/gunwriter.html
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2009 at 00:02
www.technika.nu View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman


Joined: August/02/2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 611
I cant see your link Bags, have something happend to it?
 
 
What I belive mostly propble never understand with mil dot is that it's a metric system, and every use with mil dots combined with MOA, Inches and yards is more or less waste, slow, confusing and most of all stupid.
 
In mil is one meter at 1000 meter, or 10 centimeter at 100 meter.
30 centimeter at 300 meter etc.
Combined with 1 cm clicks (same thing as 0,1 mil clicks) makes math and use very much easyer.
The combination of Mil dots and MOA clicks is really awkward and a superior way of doing something wrong.
 
Technika
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2009 at 14:45
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 18337
Originally posted by Clark Clark wrote:

The way I look at it 1 moa is ~ 1" at 100  yards, and ~2" at 200 yards.
A milliradian [ one thousandth of a circle divided by  two pi] of is 3.6 inches at 100 yards.

So an moa is 1" at 100  yards and a milliradian is 0.36" at 100 yards.

My eye can see ~ 1 moa, so if a scope is fist focal plane, I can barely see the hatch marks on the tactical reticle at 1X or 2X if they are 1 moa.

So my eye can barely see .1 milliradians with 7X or 14X

I can see .5 milliradian marks on the reticle over the target on 2X magnification, but that is an all out eye exam effort.

What is easiest for me is to look at the target with the range finder [A Lecia CRF1200 from SWFA and it works great], say it says 500 yards, then I look at my print out from Quicklaod that says with that bullet at that velocity, zero'd at 200 yards and the scope 2" above the bore, then I need 40" elevation or 7.8 moa.
I then either aim 3' over the lung shot or I turn the elevation knob on the scope up 7.5 or 8 moa.

Leaving the errors above out, if you hold 1.7 mils with a mil-dot scope you will be pretty much dead on.  Just slightly under 1.75 mils.  A mil-dot master can help significantly.  I'm multiplying in my head here.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/07/2009 at 21:01
jonoMT View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: November/13/2008
Location: Montana
Status: Offline
Points: 4613
Technika,

If I was depending solely on a reticle for ranging, I would absolutely go with a mil/mil scope. You're right: The math is much easier - easy enough to do in your head. But once I realized the need for accurate ranging required a rangefinder and custom (range-verified) ballistics tables it really didn't matter to me if the knobs are 1/4 MOA.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/08/2009 at 03:14
www.technika.nu View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman


Joined: August/02/2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 611
Even if you not are using it for ranging, it's still better to use it metric.
For example if you fires and see in either your scope or if someone spotting for you see that you are .3 mils off.
That is easy to turn the turret 3 klicks, but what will you do?
Bring out the calculator from you pocket?
 
To use mildots with moa is like driving a formula one car on petrol made for mopeds, certainly not a way of optimizing things.
 
Technika
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/08/2009 at 12:40
jonoMT View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: November/13/2008
Location: Montana
Status: Offline
Points: 4613
Technika,

I agree that it makes more sense to go mil/mil. However, to answer your question (and I admit it's just one scenario), I might do either of these:

1) Simply holdover .3 mils with the reticle

2) Compensate this way: There are almost 12 1/4 MOA clicks to a mil (11.63) so I can basically think of it as a 12:10 or 1.2:1 ratio. So if I'm thinking in terms of 1/10 mils I can just easily multiply 3 x 1.2, get 3.6 and quickly round that to the nearest 1/4 MOA click, which would be 4 in this case. Yes, there's some error but I have to round anyway. And it's not like it would be that much. A 1/4 click difference @ 500 meters is ~3.5 cm.

Yes, it's still better to go mil/mil, but it's not that hard to convert 1/10 mils to 1/4 MOA. Maybe I find it easy because I've done a lot of woodworking and we still use the ridiculous 12 inch foot so I'm used to multiplying times 12 quickly. I really think what's most important is for shooters to get away from notions like 1 inch @ 100 yards or 10 cm @ 100 meters and just think in terms of angle, whether it be the ideal mil/mil or MOA.

Jon
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/08/2009 at 16:54
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 18337


That's some fancy cipherin' jono..


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/08/2009 at 17:13
www.technika.nu View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman


Joined: August/02/2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 611
Jono
 
That is another way where the mil dot is so great, it's so easly translated to centimeters
1 mil at 300 meters is 30 centimeters.
1 mil at 525 meters is 52,5 centimeters...........
Technika
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/08/2009 at 17:36
RONK View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: April/05/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 3199

 On a related note: in many cases you can see the impact of your first shot. (Paper target shooting or Prarie dog shooting for example.)  If the first shot is a miss, you can hold back on your original point of aim, compare the impact point to the graduations on your reticle, and dial in the correction right then.  This is MUCH faster and more foolproof to do if the turret and reticle are on the same system. This is the only real complaint I have against the Super Sniper. Guys who are more mathematically capable than me can convert inches to mils, but I can't do so very quickly.

I much prefer Mil/Mil, even though I grew up thinking in terms of minutes of angle, and having to change the WAY  I need to think while shooting. Europeans who grew up on the Metric System take to mils more intuitively than Americans do, I think
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/09/2009 at 10:43
jonoMT View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: November/13/2008
Location: Montana
Status: Offline
Points: 4613
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:


That's some fancy cipherin' jono..



Actually, my math sucked (I took Algebra II twice in high school). The conversion factor is closer to 14:1 (13.75 1/4 MOA: 1 mil). In practice, however, that makes life a little easier. Multiply 1/10 mils X 1.5 to get 1/4 MOA clicks, e.g. 3 X 1.5 = 4.5 or 7 X 1.5 = 10.5. (Round down since that conversion factor is higher than it should be).

Or even easier, use this rule for 1/10 mils:

>.1 mils: add 1  to the number to get the 1/4 MOA clicks
>.3 mils: add 2
>.6 mils: add 3

For example:
  • If my shot was off by 1.3 mils, I'd break it into 1 mil and .3 mils, add 14 clicks for the 1 mil and 4 clicks for the .3 mils = 18 clicks.

  • If my shot was off .8 mils, I'd add 3 to that number and adjust 11 clicks

  • If my shot was off 2.6 mils I'd multiply 2 X 14 and add 8 to get 36 clicks
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Similar Threads: "Mils and Moa Explained"
Subject Author Forum Replies Last Post
Mils and Moa Explained Bags Rifle Scopes 10
small/light with mil/mil or moa/moa c670809 Rimfire / Airgun 4
Mil/Mil or MOA/MOA Anton Chigurh Rifle Scopes 4
mil/mil vs mil/moa kgriff Tactical Scopes 31
MOA/MOA or MIL/MIL Bitterroot Bulls Tactical Scopes 26
New Sightron mil/mil and moa/moa scopes Chris Farris Tactical Scopes 22
FFP - Mil/Mil -MOA/MRAD Flanny Tactical Scopes 15
Mils / MOA and The Range Estimation Equations Bags Rifle Scopes 0
why a mil instead of moa for a Vortex PST 1-4x cruft Rifle Scopes 4
Mils / MOA and the Range Estimation Equations Bags Tactical Scopes 22


This page was generated in 0.281 seconds.