New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Mil-Dot Recticle Question
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Check GunBroker.com for SWFA's No Reserve and No Minimum bid firearm auctions.

Mil-Dot Recticle Question

 Post Reply Post Reply   Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/19/2008 at 14:56
Qbeam View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper
Avatar

Joined: September/18/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 2

Hey guys and gals,

 
It's my first post, and I have a question regarding Mil-Dot Recticles, and using them for ranging.  If you have a Mil-Dot recticle etched on a first focal plane lens, no matter what the magnification, no correction factor is needed for magnification?  I ask this due to regular recticles needing a correction factor for variable magnifications.
 
Any information on this would be greatly appreciated, and help with scope purchases in the future.
 
Thanks,
 
Q
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/19/2008 at 17:01
cheaptrick View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar

Joined: September/27/2004
Location: South Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 20478
Welcome to The OT.
 
A front focal plane, Mil Dot reticle should be accurate at all magnification. 
No difference in accuracy between etched or wire reticles, but etched is generally prefered.
 
Did that answer your questions?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/19/2008 at 17:04
Qbeam View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper
Avatar

Joined: September/18/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 2
Yup
 
thanks,
 
Q
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/19/2008 at 17:48
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 18344
And it was a very good answer...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/19/2008 at 17:55
cheaptrick View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar

Joined: September/27/2004
Location: South Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 20478
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

And it was a very good answer...
 
Thanks for that, but if Q has many more Mil Dot questions, I'm going to have to bring the smart guys on the forum into this thread. Wink
 
All that sifferin' makes me dizzy....Bucky
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/20/2008 at 10:03
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Master
Optics Jedi Master
Avatar

Joined: January/19/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7703
Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Welcome to The OT.
 
A front focal plane, Mil Dot reticle should be accurate at all magnification. 
No difference in accuracy between etched or wire reticles, but etched is generally prefered.
 
Did that answer your questions?


Within limits, there is no difference in accuracy.  At low power (small reticule), it is very difficult to accurately call 0.1 mil increments.  At high magnification - where SFP scopes require the setting to be - the task is far simpler.

Then again, who needs to mil a target with low power setting - since the thing is probably close enough to kill by throwing the rifle at it, or maybe a rock you find nearby.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2008 at 19:01
Mithran View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: April/04/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 310
Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Welcome to The OT.
 
A front focal plane, Mil Dot reticle should be accurate at all magnification. 
No difference in accuracy between etched or wire reticles, but etched is generally prefered.
 
Did that answer your questions?


Within limits, there is no difference in accuracy.  At low power (small reticule), it is very difficult to accurately call 0.1 mil increments.  At high magnification - where SFP scopes require the setting to be - the task is far simpler.

Then again, who needs to mil a target with low power setting - since the thing is probably close enough to kill by throwing the rifle at it, or maybe a rock you find nearby.
 
+1 on that, the advantage of a FFP scope with mildots or holdover reticles like the Horus grid is you can use the reticle to hold on any power setting and one milliradian will still be one milliradian.  Also good for movers while holding a certain number of mils over and for quick corrections if your knobs match the reticle, but that's about it.  Unless you really think you need it, save your money and grab a SPF.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2008 at 23:45
www.technika.nu View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman


Joined: August/02/2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 611
Just for fun I have measured a number of mildots reticles in a collimator.
SFP.
Mostly of them are not mildot at the specified magnification.
The Leupold MK4 6,5-20 for exemple had to be on 1 in 12X to be correct, othervise the fault was about 10%
 
Technika
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2008 at 20:47
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight


Joined: July/04/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5087
mil dots main advantage in ffp is when used as a team measurement, and your spotter calls for a sight correction of 2 mils down, or 1 mill holdoff, if your sfp whats he gonna say, well about two targets hts, up and over to left, on 10x, if your a lone shooter ffp don't add squat.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2008 at 05:55
Jon A View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: March/14/2008
Location: Everett, WA
Status: Offline
Points: 660
Doesn't add squat if the only thing you ever use your reticle for is correcting what your spotter tells you.  I'm usually a lone shooter and mainly hold wind instead of dialing and like to hold over instead of dialing every now and then (multiple targets quickly).  It's nice being able to do that while using your variable scope as a variable scope instead of a fixed power scope with a superfluous numbered ring on the ocular.  Sometimes it's nice to dial down a bit to minimize mirage or brighten things up a bit in low light or when a close target is part of the game.

Needed for everything?  No.  Useful for many things?  Yes.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2008 at 09:07
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight


Joined: July/04/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5087
ranging and holdover with sfp are two different animals. ranging with sfp is fraction of the power ring, while hold over is a function ballistic curve of the round you are using and is the same for ffp and sfp, hold off is identical with the sfp and ffp also. although the amount of "measurement" used with sfp can vary depending on the power just as hold over. additional sfp has the added advantage of raising the bullet impact by decreasing the power,
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2008 at 16:10
Jon A View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: March/14/2008
Location: Everett, WA
Status: Offline
Points: 660
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

hold off is identical with the sfp and ffp also....sfp has the added advantage of raising the bullet impact by decreasing the power,

It's clearly not the same if one has an "advantage" and the other doesn't.  I've heard this described as an "advantage" for BDC type reticles where you want the lines/dots to denote yardages instead of subtensions and can use the power ring to better match them to your round, but never for a Mil-Dot. 

Like most, I keep my wind and holdover data is in mils or MOA depending upon the scope.  Unless you want to do math, a SFP will only work on one power.  For example, with a 14X or 20X Leupold, you need to be on the max power--which is too much for many conditions.  With some IOR SFP's you need to be on 10X.  What's the use of a 14X scope with a Mil reticle if it's not a mil reticle on 14X?  With that scope I actually used MOA (on 14X the 1 mil marks were very close to 2.5 MOA) instead.  But then it became a fixed 14X scope anytime I wanted to hold with the reticle.

Frankly, beyond cost and availability, I see little value in a Mil-dot in the SFP, where it's only a mil-dot at one power.  Naturally if budget demands, one can get by with one.  But most who would choose that over FFP don't use the reticle for much of anything and could be just as well off with a duplex.


Edited by Jon A - September/27/2008 at 16:11
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2008 at 19:58
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight


Joined: July/04/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5087
mildot or moa reticles work the same way as bdc they are just not progressive. halving the power range  from 20 to 10 on changes simply doubles the mil coverage and the same amount of hold over or hold off. its possible to go both ways with sfp, either set the bars to a know range by readjusting the power ring or use it on high power and use the bar settings which may not come out in even interger 100 yd intervals but is just as useful, the math just isn't that hard-- this is not possible with ffp.  I use mildot on 4.5x14, tmr on a 6.5x20, moa on two night forces and mp8 (when the scope works) and mental change just isn't that hard. in view of the 200 to 400 dollars cost of ffp over sfp its hard to justify getting a ffp, when it doesn't offer this advantage.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2008 at 20:00
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight


Joined: July/04/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5087

Calculating Holdovers and Holdunders

by Linden B. (Lindy) Sisk

Revised January 3, 2008


Assume that you have a scope which adjusts in MOA but has a mildot reticle, and you want to make a chart to tell you how to shoot holdovers or holdunders from a 400 yard zero.

Here's sample MOA dope to use.

Range

MOA

100

0

200

2.0

300

5.0

400

8.0

500

 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2008 at 23:24
Jon A View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: March/14/2008
Location: Everett, WA
Status: Offline
Points: 660
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

mildot or moa reticles work the same way as bdc they are just not progressive.

But lack of progressiveness guarantees they won't work as well when used that way.   When the marks are evenly spaced it won't match any trajectory very far which means you'll need to break them down into fractions as Lindy shows in the article.  So if you need to do that anyway, why not use correct values on the correct power?
Quote in view of the 200 to 400 dollars cost of ffp over sfp its hard to justify getting a ffp, when it doesn't offer this advantage.

Anyway, thanks for posting Lindy's article.  I'm sure many here will find it very helpful.  So how does he feel on the subject?

This is pretty to the point:
Originally posted by Lindy Lindy wrote:

FFP reticles aren't just about ranging.

For punching paper, where you'll dial your elevations and perhaps your windage, a second focal plane scope is fine.

If you're going to shoot tactical rifle competitions which involve moving targets under various conditions, and multiple target engagements at various distances with time limitations, so you won't have time to dial elevation changes between targets, a first focal plane scope is a distinct advantage.

You can use a FFP reticle for wind holds, moving target leads, holdovers and holdunders, at any magnification you choose. With a SFP scope, you cannot - the reticle marks are accurate at only one magnification.

How about this?
Quote The Marine Corps has gone to a FFP scope for very good reasons - and they aren't the only ones. Most of the world's military snipers are using FFP scopes. If they aren't tactical shooters, there aren't any.

And among the scopes here in the hands of military snipers were S&Bs with Horus reticles - which the guys shooting them loved.

It ain't about what I say - it's about what the people in the field say.

Yes, one can make a SFP scope work. It's not my choice - nor the Marine Corps' choice.

Or this?
Originally posted by Lindy Lindy wrote:

Quote Did you know many US Snipers are stuck with issue RFP scopes and have no choice but use them? I do because I have taught them for many years. Cant very well say you dont have FFP so go home.

Sure. We've had guys come through here with original Leupold M3As. Fixed 10 powers. 

And that's not a good argument to go buy a new SFP scope. Nor is there anything disadvantageous about using an FFP scope at long distances.

In fact, there is no good argument for a new SFP scope for a sniper, except that whoever is paying doesn't want to spend the money.

That's a practical reality that one may have to deal with - but it's not a good argument in favor of an SFP scope.

There are more but the point is made.  It seems you value his opinion if not mine.  He clearly fails to see this "advantage" of a SFP Mildot scope as well.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/27/2008 at 23:39
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight


Joined: July/04/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5087

ffp is good if you are in a team and have to co-ordinate the effort, ffp isn't used in long range target matches or by most people, especially ones reading this forum, a professional sniper isn't going to be reading this forum.

the "precision" is the same using either system mil or compensated reticle, in fact holdover is more precise -because the holdover is already in the reticle and any additional clicks added moves the erector system less.

his statement on sfp not being usable at different mags is inaccurate.

personally don't try to walk in the marine corps shoes, the advantage of government sanctioned targets is not open to most shooters. Its like using a thumb break holster because cops use them. 

3 gun matches usually show bdc reticles to be faster than ffp

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2008 at 04:58
Jon A View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: March/14/2008
Location: Everett, WA
Status: Offline
Points: 660
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

ffp is good if you are in a team and have to co-ordinate the effort....

Man you really remind me of somebody.  Look, if you prefer SFP, if you like SFP better if you just really have to have SFP for some reason, that's fine with me.  That's great.  Whatever makes you happy.  I'm all for it.  Really.

But saying FFP is only good or useful if you're a member of a professional sniper team co-ordinating the effort is simply wrong.  Making the optic more simple and easy to use for the shooter and the reticle more versitile and more foolproof does not require a team member to point out to you in order to be useful.  If the benefits are lost on you, fine.  That' doesn't mean they don't exist.

Quote personally don't try to walk in the marine corps shoes, the advantage of government sanctioned targets is not open to most shooters. Its like using a thumb break holster because cops use them.

I'm not sure what you're implying, but I sent a Leupold to Premier for their GenII FFP to be installed years before anybody in the USMC could have fathomed they'd be so lucky in the future.  It's about using what works.  I came to those conclusions all by my lonesome, by actually doing it.

Quote ffp isn't used in long range target matches...3 gun matches usually show bdc reticles to be faster than ffp

Target matches?  Is this not the tactical board?  3 gun matches?  Where targets are rarely farther than 300 or 400 yds away and the typical long gun is an AR with a dot or low powered optic?  What on earth does that have to do with the subject?

Why not address tactical shooting (this is the tactical board) at ranges where a mildot equiped "sniper scope" is what people use?  I've made numerous points above on ways FFP can be advantageous for such use and you keep changing the subject.  If this type of shooting doesn't interest you, that's fine.  But then you shouldn't the type of scope you like best for your type of shooting is also best for this.


Edited by Jon A - September/28/2008 at 05:00
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2008 at 09:11
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight


Joined: July/04/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5087
couldn't agree more on the change of subject, although I didn't start that, orginal was simply about mil-dot not ffps
 
nothing against ffp, just saying your statement that sfp have to be used on one power is inaccurate
that mildot used as hold over in sfp or ffp is inaccurate
 
also please define a tactical scope.
 
said ffp was at its best when used in coordinated effort. not changing the subject offering the side of the coin.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2008 at 19:38
Jon A View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: March/14/2008
Location: Everett, WA
Status: Offline
Points: 660
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

couldn't agree more on the change of subject, although I didn't start that, orginal was simply about mil-dot not ffps

Actually, it specifically asked about FFP.  Look again.
Quote just saying your statement that sfp have to be used on one power is inaccurate
that mildot used as hold over in sfp or ffp is inaccurate

Incorrect.  I said it's only a mildot at one power.  I said unless you want to do math, it can only be used at one power.  Of course you can muddle through at different powers with SFP but it's slower, more prone to error, more complicated and likely less accurate*-- with only one alternate power, much less more.   Even with one easy one, say 1/2 power when under pressure or hurried doing math to the dope can be easily forgotten.  FFP eliminates this as a possiblility.

Try simply setting the power to the appropriate level for the conditions and shooting with SFP.  Unless you're rainman, it cannot be done.   The whole mess can be avoided with FFP--you can set the power ring to whatever fits the situation, not worry about if it's in the exact right spot and you'll never be wrong.  You can concentrate on shooting.  You don't need a professional sniper team member to point that out to you in order to notice how well the scope works.

*In encouraging people to use SFP mildots on different powers, I haven't seen you go into detail about how they need to correctly calibrate each setting.  If you think you can just turn the ring to a number and that's what it will be, you're mistaken.
Quote also please define a tactical scope.

I see no value in parsing terms usually used for the sake of marketing.  Suffice it to say the original poster was asking about a FFP mildot; any such equiped scope likely qualifies.
Quote offering the side of the coin.

And there's certainly nothing wrong with that.  But maybe it would be more effective to go over more reasons you like SFP vs. saying FFP won't do anybody here any good.  "You're not a professional sniper in a team so you don't need FFP" is not an effective argument for the value of a SFP mildot reticle.


Edited by Jon A - September/28/2008 at 19:46
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/28/2008 at 21:29
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight


Joined: July/04/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 5087
your right -- I implied the orginal question wrong
 
easiest way to coordinate the sfp is using exbal
 
if not , can be easily done with a yard stick or someother measure some time and 100yds.
 
away from the topic now, but ffp (to me)  work best in the lower ranges of the zoom scale were the erector (say something like 3x or 4x) doesn't cause such a large change in the zooming of the reticle as say an ior -- sure this is one of the reasons z6 aren't ffp.
 
your right about the messin with the calculations, though civilians have to worry about things like not falling of the shooting  bench and turning their cell telephones off.
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Similar Threads: "Mil-Dot Recticle Question"
Subject Author Forum Replies Last Post
Mil-quad vs. Mil-dot onfinal Rifle Scopes 4
Mil Dot question on SS16X tenguage Rifle Scopes 1 7/22/2007 9:04:25 PM
Mil Dot question tastyweasel Rifle Scopes 2 12/20/2004 2:38:43 PM
Zeiss Mil-dot Question isnbe Rifle Scopes 1 1/15/2005 5:28:25 PM
Tasco Custom Mil-Dot question BROWN TROUT Varmint Scopes 5 4/7/2006 2:04:06 PM
Mil-Dot & Ballistics Question Yotecaller1 Tactical Scopes 6 5/13/2006 1:39:04 AM
SS mil-dot reticle question .308 Tactical Scopes 4 6/9/2006 4:05:19 PM
Super Sniper/Mil Dot Newbie Question ozzy1038 Tactical Scopes 6 7/4/2006 12:00:27 AM
Mil Quad or Mil Dot ? bcraig Rifle Scopes 3
Stupid Q? MilDot recticle with MOA adjustments richhelton Rifle Scopes 3


This page was generated in 0.609 seconds.