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mil/mil vs mil/moa

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kgriff View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kgriff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: mil/mil vs mil/moa
    Posted: October/28/2012 at 20:02
I'm interested in the Bushnell Elite Tactical 6-24X50. I have read good reviews. I'm leaning that way because of the mil retical and mil turrets as compared to others like leuopold who have the mil/moa set up. I currently use a mil retical in a trijicon 3X9 and like it. I want to reach out farther but I'm not sure if the mil/mil combo should be the selling point. I would appreciate your views on the subject.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billyburl2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/28/2012 at 20:43
The reticle  and turrets matching is the only way to go! Being able to correct fire without doing any math is much simpler than converting mils to minutes. Having a FFP scope makes this even easier, as you won't have to remember what power your scope is on.
If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billyburl2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/28/2012 at 20:43
And welcome to the OT!
If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/28/2012 at 21:12

Billyburl's comments are right on.  mil/mil or moa/moa, you really want them to be the same.  I personally prefer moa/moa, but have always had a harder time finding that construction.  Bushnell Elite is very good scope and in data I have been able to compile and turn into information, it compares quite favorably with the "Alpha" scopes. 

Welcome to the OT. 
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kgriff View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kgriff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/28/2012 at 22:05
Thanks for the info. And I agree the FFP was something else about the Bushnell I liked. I'm just getting into longer distance shooting so I'm trying to get as much info as I can to help out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kgriff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/28/2012 at 22:07
Glad to hear you are seeing good stuff on the Elite Tac. Excuse my ignorance, but I am a newbie, What are the "Alpha scopes"?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billyburl2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/28/2012 at 22:15
If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old Soldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/27/2012 at 09:44
I prefer the simple Mil reticle with MOA windage and Range elevation for a daylight tactical scope. For low light I prefer the German No.1 reticle with MOA or MIL windage and Range Elevation.
I am however not a great fan of milliradian reticles as too many shooters try to use them for range-finding.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote polarcow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/27/2012 at 16:05
I love the mil/mil scopes also. But if you are going to use it for range-finding...practice is the key. A small error when you range with mils with throw you off big time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrome223 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2012 at 22:26
Yeah, its sort of hilarious that the Trijicon web site page about 'how to use a mil-dot starts with a unit-conversion table (I guess we're supposed to memorize that?) and then continues to a lengthy complicated lecture on the range estimation of groundhogs.  Thanks, but I'll stick with my mil/mil scope (or moa/moa if you prefer)

That said, I've also got a cheaper moa/mil-dot on a range-toy, and I'm not afraid to admit it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonoMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2012 at 12:55
The achilles heel of rangefinding with a reticle is that the more you actually need to know the range the harder it gets to gauge how much of the object is being subtended (spanned) by the reticle. Even if you know the size of the object, you have atmospherics (mirage, amount of light, etc.), glass quality, and stability as factors in measuring.
 
What is great and handy about having matching reticle/turrets is how easy it is to adjust the scope when zeroing or compensating for wind on a follow-up shot. I won't criticize anyone who has already figured out the "old school" ways of using a Mil reticle with MOA turrets. But if you are new to target scopes or are willing to learn new tricks, make 'em match.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2012 at 20:30
Phasers would solve all the problems...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boats Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2012 at 21:16
Scope with both is like a ruler with inch one side metric the other.  Lot easier to go all metric or all inch don't worry about converting. Most Americans can figure out MOA easier.  We are used to distances in yards sizes of targets in feet, group size in inches etc.
 
If I was going Mil I would do everything else in metric too. distances, sizes, bullet drop, everything.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billyburl2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2012 at 21:40
mils and MOA have nothing to do with linear measurement. Both are ways of measuring angles, all similarities to linear distances is coincidental.
 Mils has nothing to do with the metric system. A mil is simply 1/1000 of anything... 
If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerry Atric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2012 at 00:52
Originally posted by billyburl2 billyburl2 wrote:

mils and MOA have nothing to do with linear measurement. Both are ways of measuring angles, all similarities to linear distances is coincidental.
 Mils has nothing to do with the metric system. A mil is simply 1/1000 of anything... 
 
Correct, and the use of mils is very logical as the rest of the metric system..................Cool
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonoMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2012 at 09:46
Most Americans can work with decimals too: 100 cents = 10 dimes = 1 dollar. Milliradians work well with metric because they are both base 10 so the math is easier.
 
I do try to range things once in a while, but unless it's your job, there are more practical things to work on. I do almost all my ranging with an LRF and have memorized my drop tables so I can quickly dial in the number of mils needed to get on target. The drop tables have been verified using real range dope and are checked against my ballistics calculator.
Reaction time is a factor...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2012 at 10:15
The biggest problem IMO with using a reticle to range something is you have to know the exact size of the object you are ranging to get a good measurement.  That can be difficult to figure out. 

But that being said, a lot of people have successfully done it over the years.  But I much prefer to use my range finder, it gives me exact distances then I just have to dial in my scope. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Old Soldier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2012 at 15:46
The problem with using mil to measure angles is that you have to first determine how many mils make a circle. The US uses a 6400 mil circle while the Russians have a 6000 mil circle. I like a mil scale for reference/corrections but abhor it for range estimation. It should be self-evident but many forget that you cannot use a mil relation formula for anything that grows...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonoMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2012 at 17:23
Originally posted by Old Soldier Old Soldier wrote:

The problem with using mil to measure angles is that you have to first determine how many mils make a circle. The US uses a 6400 mil circle while the Russians have a 6000 mil circle. I like a mil scale for reference/corrections but abhor it for range estimation. It should be self-evident but many forget that you cannot use a mil relation formula for anything that grows...
OS
It's almost a waste of time to even address this issue because as I mentioned most of us are better off just using an LRF. But this is just outdated information. Any modern mil/mil scope is going to be based off the standard scientific definition of a radian. There are 2 * pi radians in a circle or 6.283 radians. Times 1000 = 6283.19 milliradians.
But this number really doesn't matter other than to ensure users of any decent scope that when they do calculations involving mils their results won't include any errors based on the approximations mentioned.  
Reaction time is a factor...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jon A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2012 at 17:45
Originally posted by Old Soldier Old Soldier wrote:

I am however not a great fan of milliradian reticles as too many shooters try to use them for range-finding.

Actually, if I had to put money on it, I'd bet fewer than 1% of those with mil reticles actually ever "range" a distant target with the reticle for an important shot.  If you take out competition shooters who only do it because that's the rules of whatever stage they're shooting (or it's set up specifically to fool LRF's) that number probably is cut in half.

There are many other uses for a reticle that are far more widely used.  So the choice is one of personal preference, nothing more.  Personally, memorizing wind holds in nice single-digit Mil decimals is dramatically easier than memorizing MOA fractions.  For me, anyway.  If you're going to spot shots for somebody or want somebody to spot them for you, whatever unit is most prevalent among the group you're shooting with most often is much more important than what sort of linear unit conversions you may or may not be able to do in your head.
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