New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - mil/mil vs mil/moa
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Check GunBroker.com for SWFA's No Reserve and No Minimum bid firearm auctions.

mil/mil vs mil/moa

 Post Reply Post Reply   Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options Page  1 2>
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/28/2012 at 20:02
kgriff View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: October/28/2012
Location: Dallas
Status: Offline
Points: 4
I'm interested in the Bushnell Elite Tactical 6-24X50. I have read good reviews. I'm leaning that way because of the mil retical and mil turrets as compared to others like leuopold who have the mil/moa set up. I currently use a mil retical in a trijicon 3X9 and like it. I want to reach out farther but I'm not sure if the mil/mil combo should be the selling point. I would appreciate your views on the subject.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/28/2012 at 20:43
billyburl2 View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: January/08/2009
Location: Cottonwood, AZ
Status: Offline
Points: 3873
The reticle  and turrets matching is the only way to go! Being able to correct fire without doing any math is much simpler than converting mils to minutes. Having a FFP scope makes this even easier, as you won't have to remember what power your scope is on.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/28/2012 at 20:43
billyburl2 View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: January/08/2009
Location: Cottonwood, AZ
Status: Offline
Points: 3873
And welcome to the OT!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/28/2012 at 21:12
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 18340

Billyburl's comments are right on.  mil/mil or moa/moa, you really want them to be the same.  I personally prefer moa/moa, but have always had a harder time finding that construction.  Bushnell Elite is very good scope and in data I have been able to compile and turn into information, it compares quite favorably with the "Alpha" scopes. 

Welcome to the OT. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/28/2012 at 22:05
kgriff View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: October/28/2012
Location: Dallas
Status: Offline
Points: 4
Thanks for the info. And I agree the FFP was something else about the Bushnell I liked. I'm just getting into longer distance shooting so I'm trying to get as much info as I can to help out.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/28/2012 at 22:07
kgriff View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: October/28/2012
Location: Dallas
Status: Offline
Points: 4
Glad to hear you are seeing good stuff on the Elite Tac. Excuse my ignorance, but I am a newbie, What are the "Alpha scopes"?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/28/2012 at 22:15
billyburl2 View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: January/08/2009
Location: Cottonwood, AZ
Status: Offline
Points: 3873
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/27/2012 at 09:44
Old Soldier View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: June/01/2012
Location: Out West
Status: Offline
Points: 22
I prefer the simple Mil reticle with MOA windage and Range elevation for a daylight tactical scope. For low light I prefer the German No.1 reticle with MOA or MIL windage and Range Elevation.
I am however not a great fan of milliradian reticles as too many shooters try to use them for range-finding.
 
OS
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/27/2012 at 16:05
polarcow View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: November/07/2005
Status: Offline
Points: 15
I love the mil/mil scopes also. But if you are going to use it for range-finding...practice is the key. A small error when you range with mils with throw you off big time.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2012 at 22:26
Chrome223 View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: February/26/2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 30
Yeah, its sort of hilarious that the Trijicon web site page about 'how to use a mil-dot starts with a unit-conversion table (I guess we're supposed to memorize that?) and then continues to a lengthy complicated lecture on the range estimation of groundhogs.  Thanks, but I'll stick with my mil/mil scope (or moa/moa if you prefer)

That said, I've also got a cheaper moa/mil-dot on a range-toy, and I'm not afraid to admit it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2012 at 12:55
jonoMT View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: November/13/2008
Location: Montana
Status: Offline
Points: 4613
The achilles heel of rangefinding with a reticle is that the more you actually need to know the range the harder it gets to gauge how much of the object is being subtended (spanned) by the reticle. Even if you know the size of the object, you have atmospherics (mirage, amount of light, etc.), glass quality, and stability as factors in measuring.
 
What is great and handy about having matching reticle/turrets is how easy it is to adjust the scope when zeroing or compensating for wind on a follow-up shot. I won't criticize anyone who has already figured out the "old school" ways of using a Mil reticle with MOA turrets. But if you are new to target scopes or are willing to learn new tricks, make 'em match.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2012 at 20:30
Kickboxer View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: February/13/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 18340
Phasers would solve all the problems...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2012 at 21:16
boats View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: June/05/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 33
Scope with both is like a ruler with inch one side metric the other.  Lot easier to go all metric or all inch don't worry about converting. Most Americans can figure out MOA easier.  We are used to distances in yards sizes of targets in feet, group size in inches etc.
 
If I was going Mil I would do everything else in metric too. distances, sizes, bullet drop, everything.
 
Boats
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2012 at 21:40
billyburl2 View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: January/08/2009
Location: Cottonwood, AZ
Status: Offline
Points: 3873
mils and MOA have nothing to do with linear measurement. Both are ways of measuring angles, all similarities to linear distances is coincidental.
 Mils has nothing to do with the metric system. A mil is simply 1/1000 of anything... 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2012 at 00:52
Gerry Atric View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: April/21/2011
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 197
Originally posted by billyburl2 billyburl2 wrote:

mils and MOA have nothing to do with linear measurement. Both are ways of measuring angles, all similarities to linear distances is coincidental.
 Mils has nothing to do with the metric system. A mil is simply 1/1000 of anything... 
 
Correct, and the use of mils is very logical as the rest of the metric system..................Cool
 
Gerry Atric
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2012 at 09:46
jonoMT View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: November/13/2008
Location: Montana
Status: Offline
Points: 4613
Most Americans can work with decimals too: 100 cents = 10 dimes = 1 dollar. Milliradians work well with metric because they are both base 10 so the math is easier.
 
I do try to range things once in a while, but unless it's your job, there are more practical things to work on. I do almost all my ranging with an LRF and have memorized my drop tables so I can quickly dial in the number of mils needed to get on target. The drop tables have been verified using real range dope and are checked against my ballistics calculator.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2012 at 10:15
supertool73 View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Master
Optics Jedi Master
Avatar
Superstool

Joined: January/03/2008
Location: Utah
Status: Offline
Points: 9521
The biggest problem IMO with using a reticle to range something is you have to know the exact size of the object you are ranging to get a good measurement.  That can be difficult to figure out. 

But that being said, a lot of people have successfully done it over the years.  But I much prefer to use my range finder, it gives me exact distances then I just have to dial in my scope. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2012 at 15:46
Old Soldier View Drop Down
Optics GrassHopper
Optics GrassHopper


Joined: June/01/2012
Location: Out West
Status: Offline
Points: 22
The problem with using mil to measure angles is that you have to first determine how many mils make a circle. The US uses a 6400 mil circle while the Russians have a 6000 mil circle. I like a mil scale for reference/corrections but abhor it for range estimation. It should be self-evident but many forget that you cannot use a mil relation formula for anything that grows...
OS
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2012 at 17:23
jonoMT View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: November/13/2008
Location: Montana
Status: Offline
Points: 4613
Originally posted by Old Soldier Old Soldier wrote:

The problem with using mil to measure angles is that you have to first determine how many mils make a circle. The US uses a 6400 mil circle while the Russians have a 6000 mil circle. I like a mil scale for reference/corrections but abhor it for range estimation. It should be self-evident but many forget that you cannot use a mil relation formula for anything that grows...
OS
It's almost a waste of time to even address this issue because as I mentioned most of us are better off just using an LRF. But this is just outdated information. Any modern mil/mil scope is going to be based off the standard scientific definition of a radian. There are 2 * pi radians in a circle or 6.283 radians. Times 1000 = 6283.19 milliradians.
But this number really doesn't matter other than to ensure users of any decent scope that when they do calculations involving mils their results won't include any errors based on the approximations mentioned.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2012 at 17:45
Jon A View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: March/14/2008
Location: Everett, WA
Status: Offline
Points: 660
Originally posted by Old Soldier Old Soldier wrote:

I am however not a great fan of milliradian reticles as too many shooters try to use them for range-finding.

Actually, if I had to put money on it, I'd bet fewer than 1% of those with mil reticles actually ever "range" a distant target with the reticle for an important shot.  If you take out competition shooters who only do it because that's the rules of whatever stage they're shooting (or it's set up specifically to fool LRF's) that number probably is cut in half.

There are many other uses for a reticle that are far more widely used.  So the choice is one of personal preference, nothing more.  Personally, memorizing wind holds in nice single-digit Mil decimals is dramatically easier than memorizing MOA fractions.  For me, anyway.  If you're going to spot shots for somebody or want somebody to spot them for you, whatever unit is most prevalent among the group you're shooting with most often is much more important than what sort of linear unit conversions you may or may not be able to do in your head.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2012 at 17:54
Jon A View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: March/14/2008
Location: Everett, WA
Status: Offline
Points: 660
As for the number of radians in a circle stuff...every scope ever made on this planet (except for one particular Leupold, to the best of my information) has the reticle made to true mils and even in the case of one done to 6400, it's less than a two percent error.

The same cannot be said for MOA (or is it 1/4 inch per hundred yards?) as many have been made both ways so much you can't trust the label stamped right on the scope.  And the error is nearly 5% there.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/01/2012 at 21:43
MZ5 View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: July/03/2012
Location: Arizona, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 111
It's truly astounding to me how genuinely RETARDED it is to mix mils and minutes (or at least 1/4-inches) on the same scope.  Most of the major scope makers have both 1/4-inch and mil adjusters, so there's genuinely NO reason to perpetrate this ridiculousness against us (scope buyers).  That most of us didn't know any better at one time or another is immaterial; they should NEVER mix the two on a scope.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/02/2012 at 16:43
jonoMT View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: November/13/2008
Location: Montana
Status: Offline
Points: 4613
Originally posted by MZ5 MZ5 wrote:

It's truly astounding to me how genuinely RETARDED it is to mix mils and minutes (or at least 1/4-inches) on the same scope.  Most of the major scope makers have both 1/4-inch and mil adjusters, so there's genuinely NO reason to perpetrate this ridiculousness against us (scope buyers).  That most of us didn't know any better at one time or another is immaterial; they should NEVER mix the two on a scope.
It's more just a case of things having been done a certain way for a long time without rethinking the overall system. Scope turrets have long been made to use MOA adjustments. At least manufacturers got it right to use an angular system rather than a linear one. Adding mil reticles was an evolution but was done without throwing out the all the practices that grew up around using MOA turrets.
 
In some cases, I imagine there are are still military units and instructors that won't change to using matching turrets and reticles. And many (civilian) shooters have been uninformed about the advantages of matching turrets and reticles. I know I was one of them up until 3-4 years ago...recently enough to have bought a mismatched scope that I later paid NF to convert to mil/mil.
 
There will be manufacturers who continue to sell mismatched scopes. But the situation is better than it was. Thanks to sites like the OT, more people are becoming aware of the issues. And at least some manufacturers are getting the message that there's a market.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/03/2012 at 02:50
8shots View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight
Avatar
Lord Of The Flies

Joined: March/14/2007
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 5753
To hit what you are aiming at that is so far away (and small) that you need to range it (300 yds and out to 600 yds +), you must be able to shoot well. In order to shoot well you need to practise a lot. With a lot of practise comes knowledge of your scope's clicks. In the end, regardless of mils, moa, or 4 clicks or 3 clicks per inch at 100yds, you just know from experience...350 yds = 8clicks, 400 yds =11 clicks and so on. Wind 20mph 400 yds = 12 clicks etc. You just do not think in mils, MOA etc, just clicks.
 
And to range through your scope? You need a very steady rest and lots of time. Can you see exactly in mils where the impact was through the dust of your shot? I doubt it, only that is was left or right, up or down and to about 6 inches accuracy. Can you say it was 14 inches left? Probably it was  between 8 inches or 20 inches.
 
Far more imprtant is a scope that dials accurately and repeatably. And that you know how much your scope actually shifts per click.
 
If you are permitted the tools, a rangefinder is the correct tool for ranging. A riflescope at best gives you an approximate idea.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/03/2012 at 16:22
Jon A View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman
Avatar

Joined: March/14/2008
Location: Everett, WA
Status: Offline
Points: 660
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  1 2>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Similar Threads: "mil/mil vs mil/moa"
Subject Author Forum Replies Last Post
small/light with mil/mil or moa/moa c670809 Rimfire / Airgun 4
Mil/Mil or MOA/MOA Anton Chigurh Rifle Scopes 4
MOA/MOA or MIL/MIL Bitterroot Bulls Tactical Scopes 26
New Sightron mil/mil and moa/moa scopes Chris Farris Tactical Scopes 22
FFP - Mil/Mil -MOA/MRAD Flanny Tactical Scopes 15
Mil-quad vs. Mil-dot onfinal Rifle Scopes 4
10x42 mil mil Ny rifleman Tactical Scopes 5
Mil Quad or Mil Dot ? bcraig Rifle Scopes 3
Mil/Mil for $400 HankM1942 Tactical Scopes 7
Weaver Tactical GS 3-10x40 mil/mil red state Tactical Scopes 1


This page was generated in 0.375 seconds.