New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Middle caliber magnums belted or not
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Check GunBroker.com for SWFA's No Reserve and No Minimum bid firearm auctions.

Middle caliber magnums belted or not

 Post Reply Post Reply   Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options Page  1 2 3 8>
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 16:10
preacherman View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/07/2012
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 71
If these are not useful for dangerous game, and overpowered for large game what exactly are they for? from the 8mm mag and the 338-06 to the 350 Remington mag and the 358 Norma, 338 win,340 weatherby , the 330 Dakota ETC. Target? Long range black tail deer at a mile? If the only real needs are 30 caliber and 375 and up then why bungle things up with un-needed and overpowered gopher weapons?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 16:25
trigger29 View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar
X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

Joined: September/29/2007
Location: South Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 4295
I would like a .338 for Elk, possibly at longer ranges, moose, grizzly bear, and anything in africa up to eland. I don't think there is no use for the middle calibers.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 16:27
preacherman View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/07/2012
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 71
are they just "gimmic" weapons that look good on paper and are pretty? What purpose can there possibly be for them? Seriously
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 16:37
supertool73 View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Master
Optics Jedi Master
Avatar
Superstool

Joined: January/03/2008
Location: Utah
Status: Online
Points: 9531
I would say, people just like options.  It has a lot to do with people wanting to make money, so they come out with something a little different hoping to get a market share.  As well I bet some of the designers were just trying to make a round a little better in one way or another than a similar round.  Just always looking for something just a little faster, that functions just a little better

In reality if a guy had a .223, a 30-06 and a .375 h&h he could virtually hunt anything except the very largest african game and it would be all he ever needed.  But most of us just want options to play with and try.   
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 17:04
preacherman View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/07/2012
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 71
Why not a 458 win mag or a 460  a 30-06 and a 22 hornet

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 17:09
supertool73 View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Master
Optics Jedi Master
Avatar
Superstool

Joined: January/03/2008
Location: Utah
Status: Online
Points: 9531
Those would work as well.  See how the options just fit everyone differently.  Wink
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 17:13
preacherman View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/07/2012
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 71
I tend to think there is more to it than that. I will concede that a 35 whelen is virtually useless for any more than 200 yards as is the 350 Remington mag, the 356 win and the 358 win. But I am talking about magnum rounds that have been out and killing "dangerous game" for 50 to 75 years.
Not some gimme sumpen new cartridge. Why were they useful as all get out for 60-75 years and now are just oversized goat shooters. Trigger 29 seems to have more respect for em than that.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 17:34
preacherman View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/07/2012
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 71
but anything smaller than a 375 is useless? Why?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 17:35
supertool73 View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Master
Optics Jedi Master
Avatar
Superstool

Joined: January/03/2008
Location: Utah
Status: Online
Points: 9531
Maybe, better bullet designs that have higher BCs which leads to higher velocity's at distance, more impact energy.  They do more damage and stay together better upon impact,  They penetrate deeper. 

They now have better powders that give more velocity, which also increase all these things. 

I sometimes think it also has to do with the "American" way of having to overdo everything as to why we have all the gigantic super duper mags.  I read account of European hunters using .260 and .280 calibers at modest velocities to kill mid sized game that us American's claim you need at least a 338 mag to do. 

My dad hunts elk with a .243.  He has never had a single one get away from him.  He always says if I hit him in the right spot he will die.  Guys laugh at him saying he needs at least a 338 mag, preferably a 338 378 mag.  He then asks them how much practice do they actually get with those giant rifles.  They never get much because of cost of the recoil factor.  He used to shoot his .243 a ton, was a very good marksmen.  Guess that is why he always gets his elk with just a .243
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 17:57
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Resident Redneck

Joined: June/20/2005
Location: Iowa
Status: Offline
Points: 13882
It's not so much the weapon as the man behind it.  All the odd calibers out there were the result of someone trying to make a better mouse trap; which was not always a successful venture.  Really if you look a common deer calibers like 243, 7mm08, 308, 270 280 30-06, 300 WM, 7mmMag and a bunch more they all do about the same thing when they hit a deer in the same spot and the deer is just as dead with one as another.  Bullets on the other hand have improved quite a bit and so have optics.  But all in all a guy has to admit that there have been a lot of deer killed with a  30-30 winchester or a slew of other less than balistically impressive calibers.  I say find a rifle caliber you enjoy shooting and shoot it a lot enough to know what it will do at different distances and if something is too far away - walk closer.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 19:33
lucytuma View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight
Avatar

Joined: November/25/2007
Location: Wisconsin
Status: Offline
Points: 5389
I agree that alot of it is curb appeal. Do we need all of these calibers no, but this can be said for almost all products. Do we need 10 different car manufactures who each have five different models with 1000's of options no.  Options and choice just enhance our life experiences.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 19:59
gulf1263 View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: June/15/2011
Location: Alaska
Status: Offline
Points: 212
IMHO before the new premium bullets the middle caliber magnum cartridges were the answer for large game like elk and moose.  They really earned their keep when it came to brown/grizzley bear.
The .338 Win. Mag., .358 Norma Mag. and the .375 H&H Mag. all can stop a charge and put a bear down with the heavier non premium bullets and with the premium bullets add extra insurance.
I have been present and have seen their effectiveness on bears at close range during charges.
They are a survival tool pure and simple.
A properly set up rifle will not give problems with the belted magnums, point of fact some of the newer nonbelted magnums are harder to get to feed than the belted mags.
Problems occur when people buy a brand new rifle just before a hunt, haven't practiced with it and then try to use it.
Interestingly enough the Browning BAR in .338 never seems to have the feeding problems caused by a short stroked bolt gun. They seemed to work pretty well and almost never had a feeding problem with the belted rounds.
I may buy another .338 Win. Mag. just for old times sake, I don't hunt anymore and don't have to go after big bears in the brush but miss the thump.
Again this is my opinion and experience and I would like to hear from others on the subject.
Thanks
Art




Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 20:08
pyro6999 View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
OT TITAN

Joined: December/22/2006
Location: North Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 22024
so what are you getting at??
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 20:44
preacherman View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/07/2012
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 71
What  I  am after is a discussion based on real world experience as well as ballistic truths of the middle caliber magnums and even some non magnums such as the 338-o6. Do they perform well?what are their limitations and so on. Merits as well as detracting factors of said calibers REALLY going into depth caliber by caliber.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 21:03
lucytuma View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight
Avatar

Joined: November/25/2007
Location: Wisconsin
Status: Offline
Points: 5389
I own the oddball 35 whelen and it works wonderfully for stand hunting in heavy cover in northern Wi.  and thats the only use it gets. I think alot of us Nuts put together rifles and optics for specific intended purposes, be it animal or terrain. 
I also beleive many of the 338 and up crowd buy these rifles to keep personal goals and dreams hunts alive, I being one.  Being a man in the USA we're limited to one spouse at a time, but we can have as many flings and affairs with rifles as the pocket book will allow. Wink 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 21:13
Alan Robertson View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: October/31/2009
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 1724
Originally posted by preacherman preacherman wrote:

Why not a 458 win mag or a 460  a 30-06 and a 22 hornet

As far as the .458 Win and .460 Roy are concerned, the .458 Lott overcomes all problems associated with the other two calibers, afaik.

 pyro's always talking about his .375 and kickboxer about his Lott, so they've given people a case of wanting both for some time, and who wouldn't want a fine .35 caliber something and a great .338- maybe in Lapua?
Like others have said, you could get 'er all done here in OK with just a .223 and a .30-06 (and really just an '06,) but that fact hasn't kept my safe empty.

.172 .200 .223 .224 .243 .257 .264 .277 .284 .308 .310 .311 .312 .313 .321 .323 .338 .348 .357 .358  .366 .375 .410 .411 .416 .423 .430 .452 .458 .474 .505 .510  rifle bullet diameters made by one or more US mfg.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 21:44
preacherman View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: February/07/2012
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 71
Personally this is the way I see it. 30 caliber and 7 mm caliber magnums are useless for big game stoppers. Even with premium bullets they shatter at the 3100 FPS line. The 30-06 is perfectly adequate for deer and even elk if you keep the shots at 200 yards or less. I am in fact a 30-06 fan have been for years. For most of my hunting life I used the 30-06 and the 45-70 the latter especially when hunting off horseback. That said the 338 in any magnum configuration is  far superior to either cartridge, so is a 358 Norma magnum. Higher sectional densities and better BC's are the recipe for a successful and safe hunt. IMO I don't NEED anything bigger. I can prove that a 338 is just as good and in some ways superior to either the 30 cal magnums or the eyeball displacing 458/460 magnums The same argument could be used to showcase the 358 Norma. here is such a thing as too much velocity.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 21:58
lucytuma View Drop Down
Optics Jedi Knight
Optics Jedi Knight
Avatar

Joined: November/25/2007
Location: Wisconsin
Status: Offline
Points: 5389
Hmmm....
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 22:02
Bitterroot Bulls View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: May/07/2009
Location: Montana
Status: Offline
Points: 3382
My real-world experience is that my 30 cal and 7mm magnums have been anything but useless.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 23:27
Alan Robertson View Drop Down
Optics Master
Optics Master
Avatar

Joined: October/31/2009
Location: Oklahoma
Status: Offline
Points: 1724
.30-06 with 200 gr. Accubond has more energy at 500 yds than a .30-30 at 50 yds, but that doesn't mean .300RUM isn't a better wheat field rifle if one were to take that 500 yd shot.
 Higher velocity 7s and .30s need thicker jacket bullets than slower flavors, but the same is true with any high velocity impact. Is a .308 180 gr hitting at 3100 fps more likely to come apart than a 200 gr .338 hitting at 3100 fps?
Non-bonded boattails in any flavor seem to shed jackets faster (for me) than flat base.
John Barsness talks about a tiny woman he knows who hunts everything with a .338 Win.
Several non- magnum .35s and .37s in a fast lever or auto would make a fantastic hog rifle.

gulf1263 said: "...point of fact some of the newer nonbelted magnums are harder to get to feed than the belted mags."

Sad, but true. As much as I love .300 RUM (blessed overbore,) I don't currently have one, for just that reason. Dadburn rebated rims, anyhow. Maybe a Warbird in my future...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 23:46
hatton mann View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: March/02/2011
Location: ne
Status: Offline
Points: 129
Uncle Willie used to say : " make the shot w/ whatcha' got". Excellent
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 23:56
gulf1263 View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: June/15/2011
Location: Alaska
Status: Offline
Points: 212
I have only used the .338 Win. Mag. and 12ga. Brenekes on large game. My .257 Weatherby was only used on a marmot.
If it does not want to trample, gore, claw or eat you then the lighter calibers work fine.
A 30/06 with premium bullets or a 7mm. Mag. with premium bullets can kill a large animal under normal hunting conditions, however when you become the target your chances greatly increase with the .338 Win. Mag. and above.
This pertains to bolt action rifles, not the large bore lever guns which are not as good for wacking a critter at ranges over 200 yards.
Larger bore, tough bullets and the ability to get off a second or third shot make the .338 Win. Mag. my choice for North America.
Stopping a charge with a smaller caliber might work once or twice but then you are screwed on the next one..I did not find it pleasurable and had to do it many times.
I could get multiple hits with the .338 Win. Mag. and stop the animal, my life was important and doing what I had to do was not an intellectual exercise.
I have actually seen the .338 Win. Mag., .358 Norma Mag. and .375 H&H Mag. stop bear charges numerous times.
I have seen the .458 Win. Mag. fail to stop an escaping bear because of poor shoot placement because of flinch.
The .338 Win. Mag. was at my recoil threshold, it was the most powerful rifle I could practice with that would let me deliver repeat shots accurately.
I would be happy to hear from those who have done it with repeatedly under unfavorable conditions with other calibers than the ones mentioned above.
I am sure folks from Africa have used the 9.3x62.
Again, this is my experience and yours may be different and I respect that.
Thanks
Art
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2012 at 07:21
3 Tuns View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice


Joined: June/28/2011
Status: Offline
Points: 60
  The .338 WM is my favorite plains game cartridge.  Some game is big and tough and a heavy bullet is needed.  Sometimes they do not stand quietly, out in the open, and broadside.  Sometimes a second shot is required at something moving away from the rifle.  I don't hunt behind fences.
 
 
  You might run accross something at longer ranges than normal (gemsbuck or springbuck for example), so a fairly flat trajectory is good.  If it is a plains game and buffalo hunt I carry a .375, but with no buffalo it is usually a .338 WM.
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2012 at 08:08
300S&W View Drop Down
Optics God
Optics God
Avatar

Joined: January/27/2008
Location: Burlington,WV
Status: Offline
Points: 10592
 
 Seems to me what has been forgotten for yrs was what the main reason was for offering the larger capacity cases in any caliber.  To drive the heavier bullets of those calibers faster for better ballistics.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2012 at 08:15
pyro6999 View Drop Down
Optics Retard
Optics Retard
Avatar
OT TITAN

Joined: December/22/2006
Location: North Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 22024
Originally posted by preacherman preacherman wrote:

Personally this is the way I see it. 30 caliber and 7 mm caliber magnums are useless for big game stoppers. Even with premium bullets they shatter at the 3100 FPS line. The 30-06 is perfectly adequate for deer and even elk if you keep the shots at 200 yards or less. I am in fact a 30-06 fan have been for years. For most of my hunting life I used the 30-06 and the 45-70 the latter especially when hunting off horseback. That said the 338 in any magnum configuration is  far superior to either cartridge, so is a 358 Norma magnum. Higher sectional densities and better BC's are the recipe for a successful and safe hunt. IMO I don't NEED anything bigger. I can prove that a 338 is just as good and in some ways superior to either the 30 cal magnums or the eyeball displacing 458/460 magnums The same argument could be used to showcase the 358 Norma. here is such a thing as too much velocity.

i would strongly disagree with that statement. the .300H&H and the .300wby both accounted for numerous dangerous game kills back in the day. 7mm ok, i may concede defeat there, not that i strongly back the 7mag any way. as far as my .375H&H goes, i would kill anything that walks the planet with that rifle and not feel under-gunned in any situation. as far as what your talking about here, throw b.c out of the equation, most shots are taken at bow ranges, sectional density and the makeup of the bullets materials trump b.c in this circumstance.
also, as the old saying in racing goes, there is not replacement for displacement, the larger the hole the better your chances get. now i will say that placement still has to be  there on dangerous game. you take a bad shot at a whitetail with a .458 lott and more than likely its gonna die right where it was shot regardless.
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  1 2 3 8>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Similar Threads: "Middle caliber magnums belted or not"
Subject Author Forum Replies Last Post
BELTED MAGNUM CASES hot30 Reloading & Ballistics 23 2/12/2007 6:22:24 PM
New cartridge designs, belted vs. non-belted Dolphin Firearms 197
Scope for Marlin 1894C .357 magnum caliber Chem-man Rifle Scopes 4
Talley rings not touching in the middle cdj588 Rings and bases 18
looking for a hunt in the corn belt Jsimoneaud General Hunting 48
Not my best, not my worst. helo18 The Range Report 7
Best Middle priced glass? DAVE44 Binoculars 9 10/25/2006 11:32:14 AM
Middle class scopes workingmanGary Rifle Scopes 8
Scopes: not too big, not too small, just right koshkin Rifle Scopes 23
Remington 597 Magnum 17HMR SVT_Tactical Firearms For Sale 2


This page was generated in 0.264 seconds.