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M1A Mark 14 Scope & Mounts??

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/25/2007 at 21:11
rcnich View Drop Down
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I'm new to the forum and suspect that I'm certainly not the first to ask these questions; so thanks in advance for your patience.  I don't have much experience with long range optics.

 

I've got an M1A with Fulton Armory Mark 14 upgrade and want to add a variable power 2x10 or 3x9 scope.  I'll be using this as my 2nd long gun in the trunk of my patrol car. (Rem. 870 in the rack for anything under 25 yds.; AR w/ M3 Aimpoint for 25-200 yds; and the M1A from 200-400 yards.)  I really can't imagine a situation where I would target anyone beyond 400 yards with the M1A. 

 

Anyway, I'd like to keep my scope purchase below $600, as I doubt this rifle will never have the accuracy to warrant a $1000+ scope, nor will it be used as a sniper rifle.

 

I'm considering the Bushnell 2.5-10 x 40 Elite 4200, or the Zeiss 3-9 x 40 Conquest (both with Mil Dot reticle).

Am I overlooking other good quality/value scopes?  I'd like to keep the scope objective bell either as 40 or 42.

 

I plan to mount the scope with ARMs #22 QD rings, or LaRue QD rings.

Like this:

 

 

Is there a better mounting system, e.g. the ARMs #18 mount?

 

 

What do you think of THIS mounting configuration?

 

 

It's a LaRue SPR / M4 flat top mount -- reversed?   Would this be a stable mount?  What about line of sight & eye relief? 

 

Thanks for your help!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2007 at 09:43
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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I have several comments that may not make you entirely happy but they are true. Under 50 yards you need to be able to hit a man with your pistol, If you cant then you need to spend much more time shooting hand guns and one thing that I highly recommend is that you find a pond or river and shoot at sticks or leaves which gives you instant feedback regarding the location of the bullet strike. When you shoot at something you shoot at a particular point on it. ( sounds like: AIM SMALL - MISS SMALL, well its true).  The shotgun is more useful as a psychological weapon than it is for anything else as it will make people back down and surrender. Accuracy of shotgun buckshot is unreliable and unpredictable at best and police have to be accountable for everything their bullets hit. So I do not like shotguns for police work however there are exceptions to the rule like if you were chasing an armed man through the uninhabited woods or shooting at a bad guy behing a car in a rural area. I also think the .223 cartridge is typically lacking in take down power. However Federal has some new Tactical 77grain bullets that work very well and that would be quite acceptable. Not only that but the AR with M3 or EOTech is fairly standard to law enforcement. As for the M1a it is one of my favorite rifles and is one of the finest pieces of combat equipment you could possibly own. That said it is also exceptionally difficult to put a scope on one and requires that a different stock be installed at significant cost to change the cheekweld. The M25 version is the correct way to scope the rifle. I would use Badger rings, the base is the hard part. I would contact George a GAPrecision in Kansas City, Mo. http://www.gaprecision.net/  for a solution. Actually I would probably only carry the handgun and the M1a without a scope or with an aimpoint on the M1a.  I can think of situations where I would engage a target at any distance within sight - if they are shooting at me or at someone else. Simply adjust the fixed sights on the M1a and shoot at them.  Get your M1a out on a 600 meter range and convince yourself that you can hit a man size target at 600 meters. My M1a is a 2moa gun and I feel fairly certain I could ruin someones whole day at 600 meters and certainly give them reason for concern at 1000 meters as for close range they are toast. Technology is not always the answer sometimes practice and experience is what you need to get you through. I do like my Comp M4 Aimpoint scope, and if you could obtain the base that Springfield Armory makes for the SOCOM  that might be a good way to go. Rock River Arms will come out with an AR flat top .308 next month, DPMS has one but the best is the one made by GAPrecision.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2007 at 10:24
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
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Wow, that's what I'd call a pimp-stick beat-down.

 

Having never served in law enforcement, I won't be offering mission-specific advice; however, I can say without hesitation that my SOCOM with Aimpoint can easily hit bullseyes at 300 yards (don't have a 400 yard range, but I'm guessing it'd do there too.)

 

In many ways, I tend to side with Ufriend in that precision fire is always best, especially in an urban environment and especially with personal injury lawyers being personal injury lawyers.

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2007 at 10:43
rcnich View Drop Down
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No offense taken, Ur.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

I'll let you know that my last day/nightfire pistol qualification (Kimber TLE .45) was a 100%, and 20% of that score is from the 50 yard line. 

 

As for shotgun vs. pistol, if I have a choice, I prefer the shotgun when I'm making felony stops.  My 870 is ported, and has a modified choke; it consistently puts nine pellets of 12 ga. 00-buck within a 4-inch circle from 15 yards - with no "flyers."  I would not think twice about taking a hostage/head shot with performance like that. That's nine .30 cal. projectiles hitting simultaneously -- obviously even faster than a full-auto MP5.  At a 3-day shotgun operator training course last fall , we shot 12 ga. 1 oz. slugs from 50, 100 and 200 yards. (holdover was about 18 inches @ 200).  So, I have to respectfully disagree with you about shotgun effectiveness.  I believe it's a much maligned weapon system that has many misperceptions surrounding it.

 

I agree with you on the 5.56 takedown power -- which is why my AR is loaded with TAP 5.56 75 grn. BTHP.  I certainly prefer the 7.62 x 51 for its proven effectiveness.  I've been a "big bore" fan for 20+ years.  But I've become a believer in the 5.56 if one uses the correct round for the task and engages targets within a round's optimum ballistic performance. And, as you've noted, the AR platform has seemingly become the "chic" patrol rifle.  Most younger deputies (and supervisors) that I work with don't know much about the M14/M1A.  They trained with the M16 in the service and have a preference for it. I trained with the M14 in ROTC and fell in love with it.

 

The M1A is particularly difficult to equip with a scope!  Boy, you got that right!!  I believe that the adjustable cheek comb on the SAGE retractable stock will get me a solid, repeatable cheek weld.  I'll definately check out George at GAPrecision for a scope mounting solution.

 

I've shot highpower with the M1A, so there's no problem with using iron sight shots at long distances.  And I've often thought about swapping the Aimpoint back and forth between my AR and my M1A.  Just haven't done it yet.  It is an excellent setup for the M1A.  For manhunts, etc.  The swapping option is the reason for my interest in the QD scope rings.

 

So, Ur, I don't think my marksmanship isn't really the question here.  I've just got this M1A, and want a way to get it "back into action" rather than let it collect dust in my safe.  Hence the Mark 14 setup.

 

Sorry if my previous post led you down the wrong path.  Aside from the shotgun thing, we see eye-to-eye on this stuff.   

 

No opinion on the scope selections?

 

 

 

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2007 at 11:02
rcnich View Drop Down
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Hi Ran, please don't get me going on the precision fire vs. shotgun thing. 

 

Police shotguns and ammunition are designed to provide precision fire. They are not "scatter guns." or room clearers with wide shot patterns.  We qualify with 00-buck out to 50 yards -- and are scored by the number of pellets that strike within the scoring ring.  So we have to account for every "shot." out to 50 yards.  Beyond that distance, we use 1 oz. slugs, which are quite accurate beyond 100 yards.  

 

Admittedly, there's marksmanship required to keep all the pellets within the scoring rings, and some people are never able to avoid flinching from the 12 ga. recoil. But with training and the right ammunition, the 12 ga. shotgun is an unsurpassed CQB weapon with devastating terminal ballistics.  The shotgun just not as glitzy as "precision-fire" patrol rifles. 

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2007 at 11:30
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Hello RC,

I am a former LEO and SWAT Sniper. My first comments to you are..."stay safe".

Second, I like your chioce of weapons, and see you are more than capable of handling them.

Third, I like your choice of scope and think for 200-400, depending on the situation, there is not a darn thing wrong with either of your choices in your original post, however, I would opt for the Bushnell.

lastly, I don't know if Ur meant to come off the way he did, he seems to have a great deal of knowledge and your choice of firearm to use is your business, but I thought his post was a bit forceful, to say the least.

 

Take care and good luck.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2007 at 13:32
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Welcome to The OT, Randy!!

 

As already stated, that's quite a rifle set up you have there.

WOW!!

 

What part of the country do you hail from, Sir?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2007 at 14:15
rcnich View Drop Down
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Hi Trick; thanks for the welcome.

 

And thanks for the kind remarks about the rifle, but the images aren't of my rifle.  I've got the same rifle build, but I should give credit to Fulton Armory for the images.  Mine is still scope-less, hence my inquiries regarding scopes and mounts.

 

I've got a lot to learn about scopes, and have been lurking around the forum for few days trying to absorb some knowledge. 

 

I hail from Oklahoma.

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2007 at 14:32
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Originally posted by rcnich rcnich wrote:

And thanks for the kind remarks about the rifle, but the images aren't of my rifle.  I've got the same rifle build, but I should give credit to Fulton Armory for the images. 

 

I hail from Oklahoma.

 

 

Sorry, I meant nice pictures of a great looking rifle!!

My mistake.

 

I have a genuine fondness for M1A's..... 

 

 



Edited by cheaptrick
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2007 at 14:43
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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http://www.swfa.com/pc-1526-259-zeiss-3-9x40-conquest-rifle- scope.aspx

 

The Conquest will be a little shorter than the 4200, if that matters for mounting, but both will serve you well. Optically speaking, both scopes should be close in performance.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2007 at 14:46
rcnich View Drop Down
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But is there another brand scope out there that deserves consideration that's in my price range?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2007 at 14:54
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Be advised: we fire live rounds.

 

And, for clarification: I am now a civilian, not law enforcement, not military; just a "has-been" that still shoots and stays in touch with those who decided to carry on.

 

As for my Aimpoint on SOCOM, I like non-magnifying scopes on a weapon that may be called upon for CQB or mid-range work. Since it is a forward mount and I have good eye-sight, I like the Aimpoint on that wep.  I like the 4200, I have the 4200; but I wouldn't want to engage a hostile target at 25 yards with it - and I don't know how a cop could rule out that possibility.  Given the circumstances, my choice would be the M1A with a low- or no-magnification scope that would work well at 10 and at 400.  All, of course, depends on skill and eye sight.

 

Ufriend knows I mean no harm and we don't post here to be rude or confrontational; there are plenty of morons out in the world (and especially at the local range) who serve that purpose, we are here to offer advice when needed and solicit advice when needed.

 

I know a bit about optics and weapons but in terms of good advice, have probably taken more than I've given here.  Fortunately, I haven't been booted yet.

 

And to Rcnich, asking me to shoot with a shotgun is like asking Picasso to paint with a broom. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2007 at 14:54
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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http://www.swfa.com/pc-5650-1108-burris-3-9x40-fullfield-ii- tactical-rifle-scope.aspx

(Not Mil Dot. It uses the Ballistic Plex reticle.)

 

http://www.swfa.com/pc-10156-292-ior-25-10x42-tactical-30mm- rifle-scope.aspx

(Over your budget a shade.) I had this scope at one time.

 

http://www.swfa.com/pc-8760-218-new-nikon-25-10x42-monarch-r iflescope.aspx

(Good looking scope on paper, but it's not arrived yet to SWFA.)

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2007 at 14:55
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

And to Rcnich, asking me to shoot with a shotgun is like asking Picasso to paint with a broom. 

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2007 at 15:26
rcnich View Drop Down
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"I like the 4200, I have the 4200; but I wouldn't want to engage a hostile target at 25 yards with it - and I don't know how a cop could rule out that possibility.  Given the circumstances, my choice would be the M1A with a low- or no-magnification scope that would work well at 10 and at 400."

 

You're right about that, Cool.  I've had 'em pop up almost on top of me--scared the bejeezes out of both of us. 

In the real world, I might feel better about the Aimpoint on that M1A.  Honestly, the eventuality of my actually using a long-scoped M1A on duty is pretty slim.  We have a tac team for that.  Just looking to have that option should the situation seem to warrant.

 

Nothing Urfriend said bothers me at all.   I've been around too long to let a simple conversation hurt my feelings; I take what I can learn and let the rest go.  The input is appreciated.

 

Painting with a broom is what's called post-modern art -- worth more money if it's incomprehensible.

 

-------

Yeah, I really like that IOR, but it's just more than I feel justified spending, Trick.

 

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