Low light scope?

I am building a AR15 6.8spc for a hog hunt this summer and other hunts thru the fall for deer and elk (up close of course )
I am assuming that the shots will be under 100 yards for the hog hunt at night.  Day time could be further but not sure (first hog hunt).
I was told by the guides to get a good low light or light gathering scope.
I really like the Trijicon 2.5x10 accupoint but do I need the 10x magnification?
Is there another scope you guys would recommend?

I do have a great red flashlight to help but I don't want to get out to the hunt and wish I had bought a better scope...

Thanks
Enno

The lower variable Accupoint would work and you minght wanna look at the ND3.  There are several hog slayers on here that will chime in on their optics choices, give it time and they will let you know what they are using. 

Some general things to keep in mind:

1) The closer the shot, the less magnification you need and that will increase the amount of light transmission

2) You don't need that much on the high end. 9-10X is plenty for most hunters. It's more important not to sacrifice the low-end field of view. 2.5 or 3X is great but get above that and you lose FOV, making target acquisition more difficult. There is no shot I can think of under a 100 yards that can't be made on 2.5X.

3) A larger objective will (all other things being equal, i.e. glass quality) give you more light transmission and somewhat better resolution. However, that often comes at the expense of being larger and heavier and makes it harder to get a good cheek weld.

If you think all your low-light shots will be under 200 yards then any quality scope with a magnification range of 2.5-10X or 3-9X with an objective over 30mm will do the job. For example, a scope with a 32 mm objective set at 5X will still have an exit pupil of 6.4 - as much light transmission as a person over 30 is likely to ever be able to use. Generally though, you'll want to look at the selection in the 40-42 mm range. And maybe consider illuminated reticles if they're allowed where you hunt.

For hog hunting, I currently own the Accupoint 3-9X, 2.5-10X, and 5-20X. For a 6.8, I'd get the 3-9X with post reticle.

As shots on hogs can be quick, I recommend Accupoints simply because the glass is good and the illumination doesn't require an "on" switch: when needed, it is ready.

Below is a pic of the hog I took with a 6.8 (with 2.5-10 Accupoint in LaRue QD mount) a few months ago. Taxidermist says he will be done on Friday, more pics coming!  Pictured is the 2.5-10x50.  The 3-9 is significantly smaller.





Edited by Rancid Coolaid - April/14/2010 at 09:23

I have tried a ton of optics on my 6.8s over the last few years
I have settled on the 3-9 accupoint with the green dot

the 2.5-10x56 will be a TAD brighter, but if you have illumination it's not really needed
plush, the 3-9 is a lot lighter and more compact

had the 1-4 TR24 and loved it until it got dark and the 3-9x40, even at closer ranges, like the typical 75 yard stand to feeder shot, the 3-9 is much better

jonoMT wrote: 1) The closer the shot, the less magnification you need and that will increase the amount of light transmission

This isn't exactly true. The is only true if the exit pupil of the scope's eyepiece never gets larger than the entrance pupil of your own eye. If the scope's exit-pupil diameter exceeds that of your own eye (typically 5-7mm in low-light levels), then any light outside of that diameter is just wasted outside of your own eye and there is no further increase in image brightness. This is something that new light-bucket telescope "light-bucket" owners find disconcerting. They think that if they use a lower-power eyepiece that then they'll be able to see those galaxies 2-3x's as bright. Not realizing that that lower-power eyepiece is now dumping most of the light outside of the entrance-pupil diameter of their own eye. Maximum exit-pupil diameter of a scope is important if you want to know how much you will be benefitting from that larger diameter objective. Most of the time the increase in brightness is only applicable to higher to medium powers in long-eye-relief scopes. As you zoom out past a point where the exit-pupil is larger than your eye's, there is no more increase in brightness.

Thanks for all the info guys.  I think I have decided on the 2.5x10 Trijicon,...  OR the 3x9. Unless there are any other suggestions to look at.
Reasons behind it is the hunt will have NO moon for the hog hunt, I guess the tad bit better light will come in real handy then... If I am wrong please tell me.
I looked on SWFA's sight and could not find LaRue mounts, am I missing something?  I will be buying the scope from them for hosting this forum and helping out.

SVT_Tactical.  I like the ND3 and after reading the thread on the laser I might just be ordering up one of those also... Want to just make sure the new design pressure switch is out for it before I do.

JonoMT, I think you misunderstood me.  I was actually looking for a smaller magnification scope to use like a 1-4 power.  My other hunts will be quick shooting close shots so the smaller ones would be better there.

ccoker thanks for the heads up on the 1-4 not being low light friendly.

Rancid Coolaid that is a nice piggy and a nice setup you have there!!  Why the post reticle?  If the tritium wears out (does it) do then have a post with out a triangle on top?

keo, thanks for the write up.  I am really new at this and had to read thru it a few times to make sense but finally got it.

thank
Enno

The best place to get LaRue mounts is from LaRue. They don't have many dealers selling them.
Beware, they are pricey, but the best is not cheap.
IMHO, LaRue is the best mount made for mounting optics in an EBR.  "Evil Black Rifle"
I have 2 of their LT-104

To find their web sight, google;  LaRue Tactical

I don't want to get in trouble for posting a link to a competitor, as they also sell optics.

Enno wrote: Thanks for all the info guys.  I think I have decided on the 2.5x10 Trijicon,...  OR the 3x9. Unless there are any other suggestions to look at. Reasons behind it is the hunt will have NO moon for the hog hunt, I guess the tad bit better light will come in real handy then... If I am wrong please tell me. I looked on SWFA's sight and could not find LaRue mounts, am I missing something?  I will be buying the scope from them for hosting this forum and helping out. SVT_Tactical.  I like the ND3 and after reading the thread on the laser I might just be ordering up one of those also... Want to just make sure the new design pressure switch is out for it before I do. JonoMT, I think you misunderstood me.  I was actually looking for a smaller magnification scope to use like a 1-4 power.  My other hunts will be quick shooting close shots so the smaller ones would be better there. ccoker thanks for the heads up on the 1-4 not being low light friendly. Rancid Coolaid that is a nice piggy and a nice setup you have there!!  Why the post reticle?  If the tritium wears out (does it) do then have a post with out a triangle on top? keo, thanks for the write up.  I am really new at this and had to read thru it a few times to make sense but finally got it. thank Enno

The Accupoints in general are great hog hunting scopes!  To get a better low light scope, you'd have to spend nearly 2X more.  The 2.5-10X is a bit better in low light when used above 7X, but at the expense of a much larger objective and higher price.  I would lean toward the 3-9X40 if you want a more compact scope.

Yes, the tritium does "wear out" over about 15 years or so, but even if you don't have the tritium lamp replaced, that still doesn't render the scope useless. The lit triangle you see (or dot) is the end of a strand of fiber optic.  The tritium just provides light to cause the fiber to glow during night.  During daytime, the fiber is illuminated by ambient sunlight.  If for some reason there was no light available and the tritium was no longer glowing, the triangle (or dot) is still physically there.  Once the tritium quits on you, you just send it in to Trijicon and they can replace it.

I am real happy with the Wilson Combat mount and the green dot 3-9 on my 6.8

Very nice setup, Charles!

RifleDude.  thanks for the info on the tritium. 

ccoker that is a sexy setup.  I like the Wilson mounts

Looks like the 3-9 is the way  to go.

Enno

Trijicon 3-9 ordered... thanks for all the info.

Enno

Be sure to get some pictures posted when you have it all riged up!

keo wrote: jonoMT wrote: 1) The closer the shot, the less magnification you need and that will increase the amount of light transmission This isn't exactly true. The is only true if the exit pupil of the scope's eyepiece never gets larger than the entrance pupil of your own eye. If the scope's exit-pupil diameter exceeds that of your own eye (typically 5-7mm in low-light levels), then any light outside of that diameter is just wasted outside of your own eye and there is no further increase in image brightness. This is something that new light-bucket telescope "light-bucket" owners find disconcerting. They think that if they use a lower-power eyepiece that then they'll be able to see those galaxies 2-3x's as bright. Not realizing that that lower-power eyepiece is now dumping most of the light outside of the entrance-pupil diameter of their own eye. Maximum exit-pupil diameter of a scope is important if you want to know how much you will be benefitting from that larger diameter objective. Most of the time the increase in brightness is only applicable to higher to medium powers in long-eye-relief scopes. As you zoom out past a point where the exit-pupil is larger than your eye's, there is no more increase in brightness.

I think we're talking about the same thing in the end. All I meant is that if you are taking a shot at a range - say under 200 yards - you don't need as much magnification. By dialing down the scope you will increase the exit pupil. And - up to the maximum entrance pupil of the shooter's eye - that will provide more light transmission. In the end, you can often get away with much less scope than you think you need.

And I will repeat this because I don't think it can be said often enough: If you're a hunter, never sacrifice the low end of the magnification range. Far more shots are made at ranges where 2.5-3X would do than are ever made at 20X. I would take a 3-9 or 2.5-10 any day over a 5-20 or even a 4-16.

jonoMT wrote: And I will repeat this because I don't think it can be said often enough: If you're a hunter, never sacrifice the low end of the magnification range. Far more shots are made at ranges where 2.5-3X would do than are ever made at 20X. I would take a 3-9 or 2.5-10 any day over a 5-20 or even a 4-16.

True dat, excellent advice. 

Ya I made that mistake once already...
I bought a 6-24 Nikon for my 7mm mag for hunting.  Saw a deer at 264 yards brought up the gun and shot it before I realized I had the scope set at 6.... Why did I bother having the super whammy jammy 24 power if I didn't use it. 
Now I am thinking properly... Lower power is better.

And I will post some pics when it gets installed.

Thanks
Enno

supertool73 wrote: jonoMT wrote: And I will repeat this because I don't think it can be said often enough: If you're a hunter, never sacrifice the low end of the magnification range. Far more shots are made at ranges where 2.5-3X would do than are ever made at 20X. I would take a 3-9 or 2.5-10 any day over a 5-20 or even a 4-16. True dat, excellent advice.

Absolutely!

SWFA made my decision easy... I called and the 3-9 was on backorder so I got the 2.5x10.
Should be here on Tuesday.

Enno

The discontinued Weaver Classic Extreme 2-10x56 German #4 has been a very good scope for low light night hunts.The Trijicon & WCE are a tie with optics both are very good scopes.

Enno wrote: keo, thanks for the write up.  I am really new at this and had to read thru it a few times to make sense but finally got it.

I should have been clearer, but in case others were confused as much by that explanation, here's a little clearer example (maybe). I was recently testing an inexpensive $10 scope (ebay deal) because it's performing rather well (flat field, holds zero, no CA, 1/4mil click stops, etc.) and wanted to know more about it.

For this 3-9x40 scope the sheet included claims that the exit pupil diameter for this scope ranges from 4.4mm at 9x, and 13.3mm at 3x power.

Let's presume that your eye, in dim light, will only open up the pupil to a max of 7mm dia. (this varies by age and eye). 7mm is usually considered max. 5mm is more typical in older eyes.

(The following numbers are probably off at times by as much as 1mm because I did this hand-held, holding a ruler and scope to a clear sky and measuring its exit-pupil at various powers.)


Scope Power : Scope's Exit-Pupil Dia. (EP) : Visual Result

9x = 4.5mm EP = dimmest image but most magnification.

8x = 5mm EP = image gets brighter as magnification is reduced.

7x = 5.5mm EP = image still seeming to brighten. (unless you have older eyes that only open up to 5mm in dia.)

6x = 6.5mm EP = image still brighter for someone with a 7mm dia. entrance-pupil eye.

5x = 8mm EP = ooops, the scope's exit-pupil is now larger than your own eye's 7mm entrance-pupil diameter. The image no longer is brighter than at about 6x power because that extra light is being dumped outside of the entrance-pupil diameter of your eye.

4x = 10mm EP = no increase in apparent brightness.

3x = 13mm EP = no increase in apparent brightness.


btw: If you want to test your own pupil's diameter, you can make an easy test device for this. Take a strip of thick paper. Use a thin pin to make a series of holes, 2 at a time, spaced apart in millimeter increments. (Or sub-millimeter increments for the really curious.)

Example (periods are pinholes):

.. 2mm

. . 3mm

.   . 4mm

.     . 5mm
etc.

The holes will take on the shape of a long V, close together at one end, and widening at the other. Now in whatever light level you happen to be, hold the paper with the holes close to the eye being tested. Look through those sets of holes at something distant (cover the other eye). Whichever two holes appear to be just touching together that is the diameter of your pupil. If the two little circles of view overlap then that's smaller than your pupil diameter. If two holes are not touching (a space between them), then that's larger than your pupil diameter. Its how we astronomers would measure this for dark-sky observations and matching telescope eyepieces to eyes for optimum performance.