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Low end scopes/SWFA

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/20/2006 at 13:14
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It seems that most of the press on this forum goes to the high end scopes.  Believe it or not, there are alot of people, probably the majority, that cannot afford a $700 rifle scope.  I have seen some with those scopes that should have been saving money to buy a house, but that is there buisness.  SWFA has a broad line-up of lower end scopes and as a dealer/seller of a reputable nature, I assume they must think that they have their place and are of reasonable quality.  The question is, what do you guys feel about these lower end models, what place do they have in someones rifle collection and SWFA, what is your comment as to the quality of these scopes and what are your lower end recommendations and why?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/20/2006 at 14:21
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Hello Dolphin, for a long time we were talking alot about low end scopes. I am partly to blame for alot of the recent talk on high end scopes. All of the info is still here,just use the search engine and you will see tons of great info on every brand from all of us. If you notice in the Tactical section the most popular recent post is on a $200 scope.

For the most part how it works is people ask about a paticular scope and we  give our opinion, alot of people recently have been enquiring on what I would call mid priced scopes and this is a good thing in my book.

 

 



Edited by SVD666
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/20/2006 at 14:44
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Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

It seems that most of the press on this forum goes to the high end scopes.  Believe it or not, there are alot of people, probably the majority, that cannot afford a $700 rifle scope.  I

 

Really??

I honestly never thought that this forum "pimped" high dollar scopes that much.

The S&B's, the VM/V's, Swaro's, etc.

Unless someone had a big dollar budget and asked specifically what scope to get. Those were usually someone that was trying to decide between a S&B or a Zeiss Diavari.

 

I have seen many, many more $300 recommendations than I have $700 scope recommendations.

 

Recently, some of the gang have been talking up the Kahles CL.  

But this forum tends to recommend Bushnell 4200's, Burris FFII, Nikon BM's, SS's, etc day, in day out.

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/20/2006 at 14:50
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i think it's a good balance and there are experts on many different levels.

 

i am proud to be a member here - it's a great mix.

 

J

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/20/2006 at 15:17
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I know there is a good mix, but I guess since SWFA does offer these inexpensive scopes, I am curious as to what experiences you guys may have had, as most of them I have never owned and even more curious as to what SWFA has to say, since they sell them.  I love the Elites and Sightrons, all you guys know that, I can afford them.  But every now and then, I really like to find a real bargain scope.  Any out there that SWFA has, that you guys have experience with?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/20/2006 at 15:30
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Best buy in optics on planet earth!!

The Super Sniper!!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/20/2006 at 15:50
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Can't touch anything better for the price!!!!!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/20/2006 at 16:37
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Dolphin, when you say low end scopes, you should try to be more specific.  What price range is low end in your understanding?  If you are trying to get some feedback on this I would suggest you do this:  subdivide the market into five or six different price ranges and ask about those price ranges specifically. 

There are decent scopes out there for as little as $100-$150 dollars.  While not as good as high end stuff, they are serviceable for the average hunter.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/20/2006 at 22:02
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I agree, the Super Sniper offers a huge value in the optics world.  First class performance under $300!  My "top 3" scopes (after the SS) as far as optical quality and reliablity are concerned are:

1) Zeiss Conquest 3x9 40mm;

2) Bushnell Elite 4200 2.5x10 40mm

3) Burris Fullfield II 4.5x14 42mm

All are priced under $400 from SWFA.   Honorable mention include Sightron S II (would make the top 3 but not offered by SWFA), Weaver Grand Slam, and Nikon Buckmasters.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/20/2006 at 22:45
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Bringing price into this post is not fair.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2006 at 01:42
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Originally posted by SVD666 SVD666 wrote:

Bringing price into this post is not fair.

 

Why?

 

In a thread like this it really has to be defined what is a low end scope. 

 

Super Sniper is a great deal, but I know quite a few people who will not pay $300 for a scope.  Some can afford it, but do not a think a scope is worth $300 and some can't afford it at all.

 

To me a low end scope is something that costs less than $150.  Scopes like Burris FFII and Nikon Buckmaster are really where midrange scopes begin.  Super Sniper, Sightron S2, Elite 4200, etc are all midrange scope lines in my understanding of the word.  Similarly, while I am willing to pay a certain amount of money for a nice scope, buying a S&B or a US Optics or Zeiss VM/V, for example, is completely out of the question.  To me, no scope is worth that much money regardless of how good it is.  The most expensive scopes I have are IOR 2-12x32 and 2.5-10x42FFP, and I am probably going to sell one of them.  Still, both were well under a grand each when I bought them. 

 

As far as bang for the buck goes, I think anything beyond Elite 4200 is already a case of dimishing returns. 

 

Now, if this was something I did for a living, I am sure my opinion would be different.

 

ILya

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2006 at 06:32
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I agree with ILya as for $150 being the cut off. Ditto for diminshing returns after the 4200. I think that the Kahles are getting a lot of attention here because on the high end they offer a lot of value along with excellent optics. They run less than the top drawer Zeiss and Swarovski's, too. One thing for sure, someone posts asking for cheap optics they will get plenty of replies. They might not like what they see but most of the good folks here don't buy optics that come in blister packs. They will try to convince someone to buy up if they can afford it. If not, I have seen plenty of suggestions for under $150.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2006 at 08:22
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 I think there are many reasons that some people choose the high end scopes. There's always the bragging rights thing. I personlly don't get caught up in this but it is a factor. Also, if you spend alot of time shooting or shooting in matches, I don't see anything wrong with having the best. It can also keep you out of the trap of buying the latest mid level scope every couple of years when you could bite the bullet(if you have the money) and go top end and keep it for a very long time.As far as hunting, it doesn't matter if I can see every hair on the deer through a clear scope. However, what does matter is that last shot at dark and the ability of the scope to hold zero. I've said many times that the average deer hunter could be successful with any of the name brand scopes, regardless of price or model.It seems almost unbelievable now, but years ago I was sent to sniper school with a mid level Simmons scope. I pretty much kicked butt until it broke. But it was a hoot outshooting the pretty boys with that thing.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2006 at 09:38
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Here's my $.02 on scope price points & why I justify buying the ridiculously priced stuff .  I also say that owning a $1,000+ scope really isn't unrealistic when you think about the following:

1) Most of us have at least 3 rifles that wear individual scopes.  I'd venture to say that, on average, each of us spent at least $300-400 (again, on average) per scope.;

2) Assuming I am correct, then most of us have around $1,200 invested in 3 different scopes on 3 different rifles.

3) Depending on useage & needs, we're either "somewhat satified" or "satisfied" but not "totally content" or "100% happy" with each scope as we had to buy a scope that would do the job IN YOUR RESPECTIVE BUDGET;

4) If you're not totally thrilled with each respective scope, it is probably due to visiting this forum and realizing that there are some GREAT scopes out there that do the job better than the scope you had to settle with;

5) SUPPOSE you decide to sell each scope and you get 80% resale value.  So, your initial $1,200 invested in three scopes is now $960 in cash;

6) SUPPOSE you decide to mount a one-piece picatinny scope base to each rifle.  You now have a universal scope mounting base where one scope easily swaps between your three rifles;

7) With your cash in hand, go out & buy a Kahles CL (or any other premium scope with great glass & awesome tracking), zero it in on the rifle you shoot most, and swap out & zero on the other two rifles, each time jotting down your dope changes per rifle.

 

I know this is dragging out but I have one more justification.  Target shooting is my only hobby and hunting deer & hogs has become my obsession.  With my time constraints being what they are (married, 2 yr. old son, do shift work at a chemical plant), I don't want to waste time dealing with sub-standard to average equipment.  The way I figure it, I'll never be the guy with the biggest house, the nicest car, or take the best vacations.  BUT, I'll own the best equipment I can afford in pursuing the two passions I'm allowed to have.  Just yesterday I was thinking how bizarre it is that the 3 rifles I had in my truck (2 A-bolts with a Kahles CL and Zeiss Diavari VM/V and a Savage 10FP-LE1 with IOR 35mm) are worth as much or MORE than the resale of the truck I drive everyday ('89 Chevy 1500 4x4 w/extended cab & long bed)!!!  Does this make rational sense: NO!  However, it works for me and I'm very happy with the equipment I'm allowed to enjoy when time allows...

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2006 at 10:45
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Originally posted by SwattedOut SwattedOut wrote:

-snip-

As far as hunting, it doesn't matter if I can see every hair on the deer through a clear scope.

 

-snip-

 However, what does matter is that last shot at dark and the ability of the scope to hold zero. I've said many times that the average deer hunter could be successful with any of the name brand scopes, regardless of price or model.   

 

Let me offer a differant perspective...In resent court case in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania the court ruled that the land owner was ten percent and the hunter was nintey percent responcable for a hunting related shooting.  The hunter  was on a one hundred and seventy acre farm.   Outside of the farm and across the road a woman was shot as the hunter missed a shot at a deer.  A rule two and a rule four problem to say the least.  As our hunting and shooting areas become more crowded, we have to take more steps to insure that we have a clean shot.

 

 A couple of years ago I would have agreed with everything that was in the post; now, I do not.  I think that legal liablity will continue to drive trends in our sports, just like it is everyplace else.  I think that the standards have been raised, but people are still "naping."  A better than "good"  standard should be applied to equiptment, for classic "CYA" reasons.  I think that this is extra true in the area of optics. 



Edited by silver
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2006 at 11:08
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silver,

 

That's an interesting perspective I've yet to consider.  I see where you're coming from...

 

The lawyers certainly have changed the rules of our society.  Heck, I'm married to one and she sure rocked my perfect little world

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2006 at 11:21
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ceylonc.... makes sense to me!

 

Koshkin...... you rock! 

 

Now lets get down to the meat of this post....... LOW END SCOPES. 

 

I think what we're talking about here is a scope that the average Deer Hunter needs.  Believe it or not, but most

deer hunters shoot maybe 2 boxes of shells thru their gun a year!  I'm not kidding.  I worked at Dick's Sporting Goods for about a year and half and now I work at Cabela's.  By far and away, most of the folks coming in and buying ammo tell me this.  Those guys don't need a scope over $199.99.  They really don't.  They aren't trying to kill the next B&C buck.  They just need to be able to tell if its a DEER.  They shoot a few times to make sure their gun in on..... and then go hunting.  If they kill a deer with the first shot, they are done shooting until next year.

 

These guys/gals want a scope that will last a long time without having issues.  They don't have to have great class or be able to see a deer 300 yds away with just 1 minute of "legal" shooting light left.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2006 at 11:42
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Great posts guys. To me 300$ should be the minimum amount to spend on a quality optic,

this is the price range where glass quality,tracking and overall construction really start to come

together IMO. There are a few rare exeptions to the 300$ rule such as the 4200 3-9 some SII's

and a few other scopes but bellow this point shooters are in high risk of a inferior product and

time wasted, therefore these lower end scopes should not be considered. There are many quality

scopes with fierce competition,lets not settle and demand more for less. Consumers dictate the

market IMO, do not take what "they" want you to.



Edited by SVD666
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2006 at 11:46
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One more good thing about the SuperSniper,

 

The resale value.... 

 

I see used one's, right at the price of purchase...

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2006 at 11:51
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+1 the Super Sniper has some of the best resale value I have ever seen.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2006 at 12:44
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I had a 2.2-9 Kahles on my rifle this year. My buddy had a Simmons Whitetail 3-9, and he shot his deer at least legal light. I wouldn't touch a Whitetail, but he has meat in the freezer and I don't. I shoot more and he only shoots a box to practice and sight in. For him that's a great choice.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2006 at 12:54
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The best euipment in the world will not make up for poor marksmanship skills and tactics.

Poor equipment on the other hand has a extremly high potential of limiting the dedicated

shooter. There really is a diffrence into what goes into a product at all price levels. Competition

will force companies to improve components and features. Companies like Meade are a plaig

IMO against these advancements and efforts described. Everybody has a choice of course on

who they want to support.



Edited by SVD666
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2006 at 13:45
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SVD666 is on it!

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2006 at 15:11
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Excellent points.....But this will never be settled because it is based on opinions and personal experiences. Anybody know the guy who has hunted successfully for many years with a Tasco ? He is probably in every hunting camp. I don't mean to be a defender of cheaper scopes, just making a point for those who use these scopes for whatever reason. I think SVD 666 has the best all around  debate stopper. Stay at $300.00 and above and you should have a good scope. If I had to give a stock answer? Stop pulling your hair out and get a Bushnell 4200.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/21/2006 at 15:27
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There are so many things to consider, there are scopes that cost more than $300 even $600 that have proven to be total pieces of sh*t. There is no need to worry folks you have the OT and all of us, like I suggested to Dolphin use that search link, there s a wealth of information on existing products and more info to come on the latest products.



Edited by SVD666
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