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Long Range Scope for 300 WIn Mag

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2007 at 13:38
helo18 View Drop Down
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Looking for a scope for my 300 win mag.  I use this gun for anything from coyotes to moose.

 

Coyote - out to 1000yds

Deer     - out to 600 yds

Elk       - out to 400 yds

Moose  - out to 300 yds

 

Since I am in the feild as a hunter and as a guide, I need a scope that I don't have to mess with (other than PA if necessary, no target nobs).  I am looking at the burris black diamond 4-16x50 with the mil-dot recticle.  I also need a scope that will handle hot hand loads, so I was wondering if posi-lock is necessary.  Would appreciate any suggestions.  Price range I am looking at is under 1000 (preferrably with the rings in that price).

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2007 at 17:12
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$1000 will get you a very good Burris, Leupold, Nikon, Bushnell and probably several
Sample list fine European scopes. The ultimate scope for your application is the 4-16x50 Schmidt & Bender but it costs 2X your budget.
 Don't know where you're guiding but if you can't get closer than those ranges to any of those animals you must be blowing an air horn to announce you're on the way.
The outfitters I know (about 15) make it a point to get the dude within 200 yards to avoid messy followups.
Biggest problem I have with Moose is not getting too close to them as they are not very bright and have a bad attitude and most of the "Yotes" I shoot are taken with a 10 bore BPS. I'm still waiting to see the guy with the average 300 winmag, a decent scope and good ammo who can ring a 12" gong very shot @600 yards under field hunting conditions.(wind, mirage, bad light, no benchrest etc.)  I doubt he exists but I do see a lot of cripples killed by wolves who were wounded by guys who thought they were ready for Camp Perry. Just my opinion based on 50 years afield.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2007 at 17:33
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i would tend to agree with you, although i dont use a scatter gun on pasture poodles, sometimes they hang up outside of shot gun range, so having a centerfire is a better choice imo, i know from a bench i could hit a 12 gong @ 500 yds all day i dont think i could  hit 3 out of 10 standing off hand @ a gong 600 yds away however, i tend to try to take the closest shot possible which in general i keep it under 300yds (at game animals) pasture poodles are fair game as far as they can be seen.moose have poor eyesight which i am sure you are well aware of i dont think they are stupid they just dont have a lot to worry about.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2007 at 18:16
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I guide in Montana.  Got a wilderness area that is partially burned that we hunt in.  We cover about 20,000 acres.  Average shot for hunters on deer and elk is 150 to 200 yards.  Closest shot was bowhunting at 12 yards.  Those numbers listed above are personal numbers shooting from a bipod.  I would never ask a hunter that I guide for to try those shots.  Isn't ethical if they don't have the practice, plus I hate tracking elk for 5 plus miles in mountainous terrain.  My personal range is increasing.  Off hand, I am fine out to 350.  Off the bipod, I can get out to 1000 yards (will admit at that range it is a little luck on coyotes).  Those limits are also based on the energy of those loads, and the ability to knock down animals cleanly.  That being said, if any of you want a good elk hunt, let me know, and then you can see the difference between my personal hunting style, and my guiding.

 

I really don't want to debate the ethical side of long range hunting.  It is a personal challange, as is getting as close as possible.  That being said, I want a good scope that will be good from 50yds to 1000yds.

 

Am I going wrong with the burris?  I have a fullfield II on my 270 and like it, but want a higher quality scope.  Seems like you just pay too much for the leupolds for what you get compared to the burris, nikon, and bushnell.  Am curious to your personal choices in scopes and why.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2007 at 18:46
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i too have a ffII mines on a 300wsm and i too like it, but my nikon monarch is better but for the money your talking you can buy a really nice scope, kahles and zeiss come to mind right away, ior and meopta are pretty good as well
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2007 at 19:04
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Ethical hunting aside, guides have to fix "problems" caused by other people shots.  It is best if they can get them fixed quick.  There is a big differance between between fixing problems caused by other peoples shots and "ethical" hunting.  Getting the problem fixed, and ending the animals suffering, is a part of ethical hunting and ethical guiding.

 

The Burris is an ok scope.  YET, you said that you wanted a 1000 yard scope.  That means a differance(jump) in optical clarity.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2007 at 20:58
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the best scope with enough magnification i found was a zeiss conquest it was around $800, i myself dont feel comfortable with a scope that has 6x as its lowest setting especially when in bear country and also when calling pasture poodles little bastards can be sneaky and at 15-30 yds hard to shoot on 6.5x so i generally try to stay within 3x9 or 3-10 or 4-12 and at the top end 4.5-14  but thats just me.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/01/2007 at 22:22
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I have a 4.5-14 Conquest on my Alaskan gun (bear, caribou, and elk - and wolf.)  It can handle being lashed to the wing of a plane and flown out to BFE.

 

And, what the rifle don't finish off at close range, the .454 will.  The great thing about such encounters: they are the only rounds you light off where there is no sound and no recoil.  Hell of a price to pay if you miss though.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/02/2007 at 00:51
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Unfortunately, I do have to fix "problems" at longer ranges sometimes.  Not too much though.  Had a horse roll on me one time.  Broke the stock on my 270 (that is when I bought the 300, which I like much better), but the burris scope survived.  I was impressed and maybe am a little biased towards burris after that, but want to keep my options open.

 

As for clarity, I didn't notice a big differance between the black diamond, and the zeiss.  I only got to look through them in the store though, so that may be why I didn't notice a whole lot.  They both felt very sturdy and well built.  Looking for magnification min of 3x and max of 16x (something in that range, but not those exact numbers).  Other than clarity (which I am still testing) of the zeiss, is there any other advantages of that scope.

 

Just a question on the side.  Rancid, what type of 454 do you have?  I have been looking at getting one of those too.



Edited by helo18
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/04/2007 at 20:11
helo18 View Drop Down
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Ok, it is between the following:

 

Burris Black Diamond 4-16x50 Bal Mil-dot

 

Zeiss Conquest 4.5-14x50 Mil-dot (or Rapid Z-800)

 

Opinions?

 

Also is there a sunshade for the Zeiss.  Some posts say no, some say yes.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/04/2007 at 21:22
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i take the zeiss, and so does t-bone's optical rating chart, it ranks the zeiss conquest a couple steps above the burris.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/04/2007 at 21:51
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Of the 2, Zeiss, no question.

 

But... you'll always wish you had saved a little more and bought the Swarovski!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/04/2007 at 21:55
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

Of the 2, Zeiss, no question.

 

But... you'll always wish you had saved a little more and bought the Swarovski!

or a kahles for a little less

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/04/2007 at 22:57
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Wish I could afford the Swaro.  Being in helicopter flight school, it is hard enough to put aside the money for a $700 Burris or a $850 Zeiss.  But the scope that is on the 300 is a piece of crap, and it can't handle the recoil of the hand loads.  Give me about 10 years and maybe I can buy the Sako TRG and a Swaro to go with it.  Am trying to justify the extra 150 to go with the Zeiss as it is.

 

In general use, and I really going to notice a big difference between the two?  Like I said earlier, I have only looked at them in the store.  Am going to go back this weekend to see if I can take them outside.  Thanks for the suggestions.  Any other advice is appreciated.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/05/2007 at 08:08
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You will notice a difference.

 

Given your circumstances and needs, I'd say a Kahles or Zeiss off the Sample List would be the way to go.  If you get Zeiss (don't know about Kahles) off the Sample List, the lifetime warranty applies and your optic is guaranteed.  I buy lots o' stuff off the sample list, it's the way to go.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/05/2007 at 08:12
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In the store you will be hard pressed to notice any difference, I have been through this many times.  You will only notice a difference and be able to see the European scopes shine when you compare them side by side in the field as it gets dark.  Then you will see the difference that you pay for.  Based on the scopes you are considering, I would go with the Zeiss conquest.  You can get a sunshade for all Zeiss scopes, look on swfa's website.  My recommendation for you would be to go with a Kahles.  I just put a Kahles Helia C 3-12X56 w/a #4 reticle on my Tikka T3 Lite .300 WIN MAG and I couldn't be happier.  You will not be able to tell a difference between the Kahles and the high end Zeiss (victory) and Swaro. The Kahles is easily better than the conquest and well worth the extra money.  For your application go with a Kahles CL 4-12X52 w/the multizer0 function.  It will allow you to set 5 different zero points.  My dad has that same scope on his 7mm rem mag and it is a great scope.  Go with a #4 reticle there too, you will not be disappointed.  This scope is about $1000 off the sample list.  Good Luck. 

P.S.  Where do you guide at?  I would love to plan an elk hunting trip for this year or the next.  Send me some info, contact me with a private message and I will send you my email address.  Thanks.   
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/05/2007 at 08:30
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Originally posted by TheDrakeTaker TheDrakeTaker wrote:

In the store you will be hard pressed to notice any difference, I have been through this many times.  You will only notice a difference and be able to see the European scopes shine when you compare them side by side in the field as it gets dark.  Then you will see the difference that you pay for.  Based on the scopes you are considering, I would go with the Zeiss conquest.  You can get a sunshade for all Zeiss scopes, look on swfa's website.  My recommendation for you would be to go with a Kahles.  I just put a Kahles Helia C 3-12X56 w/a #4 reticle on my Tikka T3 Lite .300 WIN MAG and I couldn't be happier.  You will not be able to tell a difference between the Kahles and the high end Zeiss (victory) and Swaro. The Kahles is easily better than the conquest and well worth the extra money.  For your application go with a Kahles CL 4-12X52 w/the multizer0 function.  It will allow you to set 5 different zero points.  My dad has that same scope on his 7mm rem mag and it is a great scope.  Go with a #4 reticle there too, you will not be disappointed.  This scope is about $1000 off the sample list.  Good Luck. 

P.S.  Where do you guide at?  I would love to plan an elk hunting trip for this year or the next.  Send me some info, contact me with a private message and I will send you my email address.  Thanks.   

 

+1 Excellent advice

 

You'll be very happy with the Kahles CL.  The Conquest is no slouch either.  The difference I could discern between the two is the resolution of the CL is/was better than my 50mm Conquest.  Both scopes are bright & do well in low light (especially the CL) but the Kahles allows you to pick up finer details in the image you're viewing. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/2007 at 21:36
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Hate to disappoint everyone, but I finally decided to get the Burris Black Diamond.  I know I will probably wish I had went higher, but the cost of Avgas just went up, so the cost of flying goes up.  Thanks for the advise.  Some day I will be able to afford a Kahles or Swaro.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/2007 at 22:11
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Helo 18.......................Don`t worry! That Burris Black Diamond is a damn good scope! It will certainly get the job done!!!! A great compliment to your 300 Winny!.....Yeah! The Kahles, Swaros & Schmidt/Benders are outstanding scopes! Absolutely superb! But, you wanna know something? The Burris will do the same thing as they will. You`ll still hit your target, at the same ranges, at the same time of day and under the same weather conditions!....
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/07/2007 at 22:31
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to bad burris cs dept gets mixed reviews
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/09/2007 at 23:32
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Ok, I finally got the Burris scope.  I am very impressed.  I haven't shot it yet, but I am hoping to in the next couple days depending on my flight schedule.  Here is a pic.

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2007 at 18:02
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Originally posted by silver silver wrote:

 

 

Ethical hunting aside, guides have to fix "problems" caused by other people shots.  It is best if they can get them fixed quick.  There is a big differance between between fixing problems caused by other peoples shots and "ethical" hunting.  Getting the problem fixed, and ending the animals suffering, is a part of ethical hunting and ethical guiding.

 

The Burris is an ok scope.  YET, you said that you wanted a 1000 yard scope.  That means a differance(jump) in optical clarity.

 It may be different these  days, but back in the 80s when I guided in SW Montana,

we were strictly forbidden, by the outfitter we worked for and by the Dept.of Fish Wildlife and Parks, to"fix" problems. It was good incentive to work with the client at the practice range when he arrived, to do everything we could to prevent problems before they occurred. Wasn't always possible though. People are soooo stupid...

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2007 at 19:00
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It is certainly not encouraged by guides, outfitters, or Fish and Game.  I am looking at the laws to see exactly what they say.  It is illegal to kill an animal for someone else when they have not shot it.  As far as I can tell, the rest is a gray area, once the animal is hit.  I only carry my handgun, for bears and mountain lions, unless the client asks that I take my rifle.  We do some range work with the clients if they aren't sure about thier shooting abilities.  But as you said Ronk, people are stupid.  Such is the life of a guide to have to deal with these people and the problems created.  Once I find all the laws pertaining to guides, I will try to let you know what is allowed and what isn't.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2007 at 20:38
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man thats a beauty of a rifle!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2007 at 20:53
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Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:

It is certainly not encouraged by guides, outfitters, or Fish and Game.  I am looking at the laws to see exactly what they say.  It is illegal to kill an animal for someone else when they have not shot it.  As far as I can tell, the rest is a gray area, once the animal is hit.  I only carry my handgun, for bears and mountain lions, unless the client asks that I take my rifle.  We do some range work with the clients if they aren't sure about thier shooting abilities.  But as you said Ronk, people are stupid.  Such is the life of a guide to have to deal with these people and the problems created.  Once I find all the laws pertaining to guides, I will try to let you know what is allowed and what isn't.

 I know exactly where you are coming from. I never had a situation in which we lost an animal, but there were a couple times that I came close to peeling the client's rifle out of his hands to do what needed to be done NOW, legalities be damned!

 Had that happened, and my boss found out about it I would probably have been fired on the spot.

 I would probably still be guiding if I could do it without involving other people!

 

 Edited to add: Don't spend too much of your time looking up the current rules and regulations just for my sake. I only mentioned it as an afterthought...



Edited by RONK
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