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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/12/2006 at 13:49
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Submitted, for your approval.

 

I ran across this thread by a guy named Zak Smith posted over @ Sniper's Hide.

I PM'd Zak this morning and asked his permission to post this thread over here for the benefit of the forum and he told me to go for it.

I realize some of you guys that hang out at The Hide have already seen it.

This is a killer write up!! The WICKED gun/scope porn pics ain't bad either.    

 

Thanks Zak!!

 

Enjoy........

http://demigod.org/~zak/firearms/lr_optics.php

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/13/2006 at 09:06
82abnnotasniper View Drop Down
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I'm new to these discussions and looking for help. I read Zak's thread, even printed it, then read it again several times. I like his recommendations for minimum scope features.

My questions for all;
-What are the best options for a .223 scope -Armalite M15A4(T)when considering Zak's conclusions (Var. Mag, clicks, zero-stop, FFP, illum. Ret, 40-50mm Obj).

Also, his statement that angular units of the Ret. match the units of the knobs.
Options for this are?

Finally, do you guys always go with Mil-Dot? What about the MOA.
Best ret for target long range +600?

All recommendations would be appreciated.

The new guy.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/13/2006 at 10:01
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A good thing to keep in mind when reading snipershide or articles thereof -is the concept of practical accuracy. Snipershide is about minute of man shooting. Strangly enough many of the contributors are bench rest shooters, which gives the forum two confusing undercurrent themes. Most of the shooters into "tactical rifles" and their variants are looking more towards a "professional" application. While FFP are good for ranging they suck at target shooting and the large click stops available on "tactical" scopes make having a semi auto a necessity because your hit ratio on prarie dogs is only going to be about 40%. While I'm not saying a mil-dot can't be used for pds and that some of their 1000 yd groups aren't truely remarkable,  (people were doing it with Thompson Center pistols 10 years ago) alot of what is going on now in shooting is reinventing the wheel (albeit higher quality). While the article addresses some differences in tools for long range shooting, it maintains the general theme within the sniper definition. To me the most important thing is having fun and who brought the donuts. Even by the general theme of snipershide a .223 is marginal past 500yrds. So if you want to sneak on pds or kill paper in a ghillie suit be my guest. If you just want to have fun with your AR- target shoot and such there are almost too many good products available, but to hear sniperhide your next scope will cost more than the gun.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/13/2006 at 16:03
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82--,

223 is not really a good choice for shooting beyond 500 yards.  Yes, it can be done, and a decent shooter with a 3.5x ACOG should be able to keep them on a silhouette at 600 yards all day, but there is a ton of wind drift and spotting hits on steel is difficult at best.  For the extent of 223's likely use, I think a low variable power optic like the 3-9 M/RT is a good choice.  No surprise there, since it is the canonical SPR scope.   For myself, I run TA11 ACOGs on any AR I want to shoot to mid range (e.g. the extent of 3Gun is about a Larue @ 400 yards, or silhouettes @ 500-550).   

If you are shooting small things like pdogs or golf balls at 100-400 yards, you might want more magnification, such as a 3.5-10 or even a 4.5-15x.

The only choices for the angular units are: MOA or mils.  If you go Leupold or Nightforce, it makes sense to go with a MOA reticle.  If you go S&B or USO, it makes sense to go with a mil-based reticle and 0.1 mrad click knobs.  If you are not exercising many of the aspects of "practical" side, then the need for a FFP reticle is diminished.

Dale,

To clarify, my article is not affiliated with SnipersHide.   It was written to help people make sense of the options, and is hosted on my own personal web site.      I have posted the article's text to several forums including AR15, SH, SP, THR, etc, so more people can find it.

The focus of the article is on "practical long range rifle shooting" which is defined for the purposes of the article:
Quote

Practical precision rifle shooting involves engaging small and/or distant targets at the limit of weapon, ammunition, and shooter capability under time pressure in field settings.

Applications include but are not limited to: very small targets 1/4"-1" at 100 to 200 yards, so-called "cold bore" shots, arbitrary unknown distance targets, moving targets, ranging, shooter/spotter communication, and combinations of all of those under time constraints.

Generally, these include everything a rifleman is likely to find in any "sniper", "tactical", or "field" rifle match. The typical platform is a bolt action rifle, though an autoloader of sufficient accuracy and appropriate caliber can do the job with some tradeoffs.

For our purposes, consider "long range" to mean within a few hundreds yards of the load's trans-sonic boundary (the point at which the bullet slows to the speed of sound, Mach 1). For example, with typical 308 loads and rifles, we are interested in ranges from 25 yards out to about 700-1000 yards.


It is a mistake to assume that I am saying any more than I am.  There are a lot of disciplines which that does not describe: F-class, benchrest, pdogs, etc.


I believe you are mistaken to conclude that FFP's main advantage is for ranging, that these scopes have clicks that are too coarse  (1/4 MOA or 0.1 mil are typical), or that practical LR shooting means only man-sized silhouettes (typical targets are from about 1/2 MOA up to full silhouettes).

-z
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/14/2006 at 02:57
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Thanks, Zak.

It's a great write up.

 

  

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/14/2006 at 05:11
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Thanks Zak for sharing this to all, and thanks CT for bringing it over here. The extended feedback it will receive will be interesting.

I did run across this at Snipershide and realized that there's a lot of learning ahead of me yet.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/14/2006 at 08:47
82abnnotasniper View Drop Down
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Zak,
Thanks!
Articles like LR shooting are a wake-up call to the Novice like me.
I have a long way to go. More articles from you are a must.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/14/2006 at 12:38
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--Again Zak-- U R DA MAN! IMO that kinda stuff is what it's all about. And more fun than a barrel of donuts-- ALTHO i must admit i do like donuts.

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/14/2006 at 18:44
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Originally posted by fourinone fourinone wrote:

Thanks Zak for sharing this to all, and thanks CT for bringing it over here. The extended feedback it will receive will be interesting.

I did run across this at Snipershide and realized that there's a lot of learning ahead of me yet.

 

Your more than welcome, of course.

Glad you guys liked it.

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/15/2006 at 11:36
82abnnotasniper View Drop Down
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Question for all,
Where do you guys 'practice', other than private lands? I've been playing on 60 acres (private) in Central Florida (500m) but can't find anything else.
I'm looking for a KD range, anywhere in the US (willing to travel) with 1000 to 1500m ranges, with instruction, programs, etc...

Any suggestions?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/19/2006 at 04:21
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FFP with Horus H-25 and Mil (0.10 Mil clicks)?

Don't knock it if you haven't tried it. So darn elegant when Horus ATRAG2 Palm, Leica BRF and Kestrel 4000 are included it makes a 752 yard first shot almost ridiculously easy.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/01/2006 at 04:27
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Originally posted by 82abnnotasniper 82abnnotasniper wrote:

Question for all,
Where do you guys 'practice', other than private lands? I've been playing on 60 acres (private) in Central Florida (500m) but can't find anything else.
I'm looking for a KD range, anywhere in the US (willing to travel) with 1000 to 1500m ranges, with instruction, programs, etc...

Any suggestions?

         No matter who you are or what sort of weapon you shoot, you too, should be a lifetime member of the NRA.  If you cannot find anything locally through your normal channels, you could contact the NRA they will know, and keep you in the know   about changing politics and where to shoot and who is actually for you when it comes to practicing your shooting disciplines.  It does not matter if you only own semi auto rifles and that is all you want to own, you should be apart of the voice that protects your right to keep and bear arms.  They, also give you the low down on shooting programs that might get you and your gun nearer to a 1000 yard range than you might have thought possible.  Good gun insurance, and member benefits too numerous to mention here.

           nra-ila.org

                Good shooting!

                      Scott

               Scott

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