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Lightest AR-15 scope mount?

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Jon A View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jon A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/24/2011 at 14:38
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Jon, 

Can I use this on my website (properly attributed, of course)?
I am thinking of writing a piece on different scope mounts and I could use a nice discussion on materials.

ILya

Certainly.
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www.technika.nu View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote www.technika.nu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2011 at 15:40
I really didnt realize until yesterday that you are the producer of Aadmount and that explains some of your opinions and your irritation.
 
And you are absolutely right, a mount in 6061 can certainly be made as strong when more material is used. And there is most certainly a good market for it, as a number of customers love heavy guns. And that is good, cause then we are not fighting about the same customers, as my customers so far have been looking for as light as possible in combination with ruggedness.
The weight differance is almost about those 30% as you earlyer calculated on.....almost 3 oz more.
But I don't wanna use more material, I wanna use less, and I wanna make the mount even lighter, but still with an exeptional strenght.
 
Hardness
The material hardness on 7075 is about 150 Brinell while on 6061 its about 95 Brinell.
Yes we both put on a hardcoat so the surface have the same hardness.
The repetability is not gained by soft material underneat of the surfacetreatment.
If the scopemount sometimes are misstreated such as lying in the bag or hit on one of the contact surfaces when not mounted on the gun there is a higher potential that the softer material on the contact surfaces will permanently deflect a little bit.
 
Rails
Don't know what world you are  living in, but I have seen plenty of picatinny rails with pretty poor deburring of the sharp edges. Yes US made rails too... When such a rail is handled in combat and exposed to the enviroment there is always a risk that small deflections at the corners can happend.
Your opinion is that it not likely going to happend, my opinion is that I wanna find a solution to limit its bad impact on repetability.
 
Contact areas
In the real world there is dust, sand and other problems.
I don't just hope there isent, I wanna minimize the users problems with those and an very easy way of getting arount parts of that problems is to limit the contact areas.
We will likely never agree on this, and we don't have to either.
 
Threads
We are talking about different kinds of threads.
First the threads used for holdning the top rings can absolutely with your construction be made sufficient strong in 6061, no question about it.
But that is also to limit the design to where you can have fairly long threads, but many other solutions can't be made with those longs threads and then the choise is either helicoils or harder material such as 7075.
For my interfaces where there is a very limited lenght on the threads there is not much choise than using 7075.
 
Material price
The differance in material price when buying billets is very little.
I expect the material price differance for one mount to be less than 5 dollar.
 
Jon, there is certainly a number of things we never will agree upon, and we don't have either.
Cause loads of customers will buy your mounts cause the like the height, weight, design and made in USA.  My product is not even a mount, it's a mounting system with a completely another pricetag but also with completely other possibilitys that will atract other customers.
 
So I wish you a very good luch with your production.
 
Håkan
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LadySniper View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LadySniper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/26/2011 at 14:40
This discussion demonstrates a level of professionalism and an effort of respect between two product designers/ producers.

I have to say that it has been educational and clearly shows that if we all seek to respect one another's opinion (be them educated and logically explained), we can achieve greater harmony to further the production of scopes and accessories. And more importantly provide the user and educate the public on the varied applications that exist.

Kuddos to both Jon and Hakan!
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Jon A View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jon A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/26/2011 at 19:44
Originally posted by www.technika.nu www.technika.nu wrote:

...And you are absolutely right, a mount in 6061 can certainly be made as strong when more material is used...The weight differance is almost about those 30% as you earlyer calculated on.....almost 3 oz more.  But I don't wanna use more material, I wanna use less, and I wanna make the mount even lighter, but still with an exeptional strenght.

I don't think you understood a single thing I said.  The point was for certain parts, only a small amount of material needs to be added to a critical section adding negligible weight (if you know what that critical section is and how it works), and if you want to match the stiffness and fatigue life you need to add that material to the 7075 part as well.

The weight of my mount has nothing to do with this as the extra material in the critical sections is of negligible weight.  There is some extra weight on my mounts--in the bodies where it's not needed for strength.  With more machining time and cost much of that could be hollowed out.

But you were correct--these mounts were never intended to be lightweight.  There were already plenty of lightweight, light/medium duty mounts on the market and I intended these mainly for the big precision rifles with big, heavy scopes where nobody will notice a couple ounces.  I have a hollowed out version on the back burner if/when I determine enough people will pay extra to save a couple ounces to make production worthwhile.

With my rings, on the other hand, weight was a bit more important.  And they came out at similar or even less weight than competing rings--even though they have greater strength and stiffness by many measures.

Quote Hardness
The material hardness on 7075 is about 150 Brinell while on 6061 its about 95 Brinell.

Again with the surface hardness.  This is just displaying the fact you have no clue how to calculate or analyze for the stiffness of a part in bending.  Surface hardness never enters the equation.  And I strongly suspect had you known beforehand both materials will have the same surface hardness after coating you never would have brought it up.


Quote Rails
Don't know what world you are  living in, but I have seen plenty of picatinny rails with pretty poor deburring of the sharp edges. Yes US made rails too...

On what brands of rails and AR15 uppers have you noticed this poor workmanship?

Quote Contact areas
In the real world there is dust, sand and other problems.

In the real world, the notion that it is THE all encompassing determining factor in a mount's repeatability, is a fantasy.

Quote Threads
We are talking about different kinds of threads...but many other solutions can't be made with those longs threads and then the choise is either helicoils or harder material such as 7075.

Here you are correct in a way, although putting it like that is a somewhat backward design process.  Instead of picking a material and then being limited by its allowables throughout the design process, it's better to come up with a design and then select a material with the required properties to make it work.  Of course there is some iteration back and forth fine tuning things after both are roughed out.  

The point is if long threads with the screws being encapsulated by the body profile are there because I like them that way and customers like them that way, material choice was not a limitation for the design because that's not the reason they were made that way.
 
Quote Jon, there is certainly a number of things we never will agree upon, and we don't have either.

That certainly appears to be the case.  Unfortunately most of the disagreements appear to exist due to the fact only one of us has the education and background to truly know the answers to these questions. 

Once again, I have absolutely nothing against your mounts.  They appear to be very nice indeed.  And yes, 7075 is a nice material. 

What I have a problem with is your constant blanket claims which are not based in fact.  Especially those that put other products in a poor light.  Properly Engineering an assembly and having some idea how strong it really is when you're done is not as simple as picking a raw material out of a catalog.
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koshkin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/26/2011 at 21:25
Jon,

When you talk about the rings you made, are you referring to a new model that has separate rings? or about the rings on the one piece mount?

Oh, by the way, if you are trying to gauge interest in a hollowed out light weight version of your mount, I am in.

ILya
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Jon A View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jon A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/26/2011 at 22:10
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

When you talk about the rings you made, are you referring to a new model that has separate rings?

Damn ILya, you don't miss a thing!  I was waiting to start a separate thread to announce them until I had a bunch ready to ship, etc, but I guess I'll have to give you a sneak peak:





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/26/2011 at 22:16
Originally posted by Jon A Jon A wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

When you talk about the rings you made, are you referring to a new model that has separate rings?

Damn ILya, you don't miss a thing!  I was waiting to start a separate thread to announce them until I had a bunch ready to ship, etc, but I guess I'll have to give you a sneak peak:




My apologies for paying attention Big Grin.

When are they going to be available?
Also, are the cross slots Picatinny spec? or Weaver spec?

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jon A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2011 at 04:20
They're Picatinny.  I should be shipping in a few days.
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tahqua View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2011 at 04:52
I saw the light weight rings on the Aadland web site the other day. Are you going to come out with a rail, Jon?
Doug
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2011 at 07:41
I weighed the options and bought a Near mount with MRDS mount caps.  Recommended by some of my associates at Picatinny.
 
 


Edited by Kickboxer - May/27/2011 at 08:05
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/28/2011 at 09:10
Let me know how you like it, Dan.  I have heard good things about Near Manufacturing, but never used their products.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/28/2011 at 09:12
Originally posted by Jon A Jon A wrote:

They're Picatinny.  I should be shipping in a few days.

Interesting.

What will they go for? I like the snag free profile.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billyburl2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/28/2011 at 10:47
The light weight rings look really good Jon! I am very interested.
If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jon A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2011 at 03:40
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

I weighed the options and bought a Near mount with MRDS mount caps. 

Richard Near makes outstanding stuff.  I'm sure you'll be very pleased.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jon A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2011 at 03:40
Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Are you going to come out with a rail, Jon?

No plans for rails at this time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote www.technika.nu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2011 at 09:26
The problem with mounting the secondary sight on the top is that it's very difficult for the neck to reach that high in prone position.
So for those who not wanna run my mounts a solution for the secondary sight is the SAR ring from TNVC that grabs around the scope.

Håkan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2011 at 20:46
Originally posted by www.technika.nu www.technika.nu wrote:

The problem with mounting the secondary sight on the top is that it's very difficult for the neck to reach that high in prone position.
So for those who not wanna run my mounts a solution for the secondary sight is the SAR ring from TNVC that grabs around the scope.

Håkan

I don't have that problem...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2011 at 20:47
Originally posted by Jon A Jon A wrote:

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

I weighed the options and bought a Near mount with MRDS mount caps. 

Richard Near makes outstanding stuff.  I'm sure you'll be very pleased.

It's steel, which I prefer, and he is willing to "customize"...  

I prefer to buy American, when I can...
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HKtoTikka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/05/2017 at 20:06
Followup for the future.

GG&Z FLT Mount
Bolt On: 5.5 oz
QD:  6.8.

I have neither, was researching.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/05/2017 at 21:56
I have the GG&G FLT and like it.

Generally, the lightest are Aeroprecision mounts and I have a few of them. All are out of round and needed some TLC to work and still they bond some of the scopes.

Interestingly SWFA SS 3-9x42 seems impervious to that issue.

ILya
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