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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/14/2006 at 09:09
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 I am considering the leupy cq/t for a 16" ar15. I am looking for something fast in close but a little more precise than my eotech for the occasional 2-300 meter work. Any and all observations / comments are welcome and appreciated. Thanks.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/14/2006 at 09:29
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I looked at those before for my Bushy but in the end went with the ACOG TA01NSN.  I like it a lot especially when I learned how to use the reticle for range finding... of which there is a great article on this forum.  I also like that I get to use the iron sights on the ACOG.  If I am not mistaken, Leupold's CQT mounts on a 1913 picatinny rail which eliminates the option of using iron sights.  I also like that the ACOG's reticle is lit without an external power souce (i.e. a battery)... but again that's just me. 

 

Don't get me wrong, Leupold does put out a wonderful product and their customer service is great!  At least that's what my experience was with them.  When I sent in my VARI-X III 4.5-14x40mm tactical, they took care of me well.  You can even track the repair progress and one of their reps contacted me to give me a heads up.  They are a real class outfit!  Don't get put out by the initial cost of their products especially since they will take care of you in the long run.

 

I hope that somehow sheds some light in your direction.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/15/2006 at 17:51
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Ok - lets say for a minute you chose 68 grain match hollowpoints from Black Hills. If you zero at 200 yds you are 2.7 in high at 100 and 3 in high at 50 yds.  At 300 yds you are 8 inches low.  So really now whats the problem hitting a man size target with and EOTech under 300 yds.  Now if you are looking out past 300 there is a good reason to use optical magnification. Just remember that a 16in Ar15 is a close combat gun not a sniper rifle. 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/16/2006 at 10:27
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Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

Ok - lets say for a minute you chose 68 grain match hollowpoints from Black Hills. If you zero at 200 yds you are 2.7 in high at 100 and 3 in high at 50 yds.  At 300 yds you are 8 inches low.  So really now whats the problem hitting a man size target with and EOTech under 300 yds.  Now if you are looking out past 300 there is a good reason to use optical magnification. Just remember that a 16in Ar15 is a close combat gun not a sniper rifle. 

 

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  • 30mm
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  • .223
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Thanks for the input.  

 

 No doubt in my mind that any of the optics listed above or an ACOG would be much better at engaging any target 300+ meters than the CQ/T.  But isn't the CQ/T going to be faster up close?

 

 I also think that the Eotech is going to be hands down faster than the CQ/T up close (faster than anything ,sorry aimpoint). But wouldn't the CQ/T's 3x help put more rounds on target at 300 meters? (especially if that man sized target is mostly behind a big rock).

 

 

 

???

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/16/2006 at 22:17
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If all you have to look at is a head looking around a rock at 300 meters the 3x isn't going to do it for you. Take a 3-9  of any manufacturer outside and see for yourself.  The CQT is in my opinion way overpriced for what it is. The 1moa dot in the center of the EOTech should do you about as much good as the CQT. Nikon 1.5-6x42 Monarch is as fast as an EOTech and works without batteries. The mid range tactical illuminated Leupold is pretty darn close to being as fast  as an EOTech and when used at 2.5 (faster than the CQT if you have the CQT on 3x).  With the illumination turned on you are not giving up much in the way of CQB here and making a HUGE gain at distance for little difference in price. Plus you get the M2 system BDC.  and TMR reticle to estimate distance.

LEU60170 Leupold 2.5-8x36 Mark 4 MR/T 30mm Riflescope Leupold 2.5-8x36 Mark 4 MR/T 30mm Riflescope
  • Matte
  • Illuminated Tactical Milling Reticle
  • 30mm
  • M2 Target Knobs
  • Index Matched Lens System
SWFA: $1,099.95

http://www.leupold.com/corporate/press_releases/2006/hunting /MRT_NR_Spec_Sheet.pdf

http://www.leupold.com/products/reticles_TMR.htm

You can mil distance, easily adjust for windage and trajectory or use marks for holdover at distance.

http://www.leupold.com/products/tactical_products/Mark_4_2_5 -8x36mm_MRT_M2.htm

Bullet Drop Compensation (BDC) – M2 and M3 dials marked for bullet drop compensation.The way this works is a cam system --- you initially set the zero then when you turn the top knob to 300 you are on at 300 when you turn it to 600 you are on at 600 etc. no getting lost in the dial under stress like an M1 dial. All you have to do is figure windage correction at distance and dial it in (1click = 1/2moa or 1/2 in at 100 or 1in at 200  1.5 in at 300  2in at 400) etc. These BDC scopes are a HUGE advantage.



Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/17/2006 at 09:15
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Optics GrassHopper
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Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

If all you have to look at is a head looking around a rock at 300 meters the 3x isn't going to do it for you. Take a 3-9  of any manufacturer outside and see for yourself.  The CQT is in my opinion way overpriced for what it is. The 1moa dot in the center of the EOTech should do you about as much good as the CQT. Nikon 1.5-6x42 Monarch is as fast as an EOTech and works without batteries. The mid range tactical illuminated Leupold is pretty darn close to being as fast  as an EOTech and when used at 2.5 (faster than the CQT if you have the CQT on 3x).  With the illumination turned on you are not giving up much in the way of CQB here and making a HUGE gain at distance for little difference in price. Plus you get the M2 system BDC.  and TMR reticle to estimate distance.

LEU60170 Leupold 2.5-8x36 Mark 4 MR/T 30mm Riflescope Leupold 2.5-8x36 Mark 4 MR/T 30mm Riflescope
  • Matte
  • Illuminated Tactical Milling Reticle
  • 30mm
  • M2 Target Knobs
  • Index Matched Lens System
SWFA: $1,099.95

http://www.leupold.com/corporate/press_releases/2006/hunting /MRT_NR_Spec_Sheet.pdf

http://www.leupold.com/products/reticles_TMR.htm

You can mil distance, easily adjust for windage and trajectory or use marks for holdover at distance.

http://www.leupold.com/products/tactical_products/Mark_4_2_5 -8x36mm_MRT_M2.htm

Bullet Drop Compensation (BDC) – M2 and M3 dials marked for bullet drop compensation.The way this works is a cam system --- you initially set the zero then when you turn the top knob to 300 you are on at 300 when you turn it to 600 you are on at 600 etc. no getting lost in the dial under stress like an M1 dial. All you have to do is figure windage correction at distance and dial it in (1click = 1/2moa or 1/2 in at 100 or 1in at 200  1.5 in at 300  2in at 400) etc. These BDC scopes are a HUGE advantage.

 

Thanks again.

 

The Nikon as fast as an Eotech??? No scope is as fast as an Eotech or any other dot sight. The fastest scopes are very fast, the difference may be minimal time wise, but there IS a difference. Considering the prize for second place... that difference is HUGE.

 

I have an MR/T 3-9x36 mil dot w/ 7.62 M3 dials on an M1A (it does what it does very well). I think that range estimation and accurate shot placement are very important when you get past 300 meters. A 16" AR (5.56) would not be my first choice for that kind of work.

 

 I probably could have been more specific in my first post. I am looking for a compromise. I want something very fast in close, and just a little help further out. I already have another 16" AR with an eotech on it. I'm OK with this next one being not quite as fast in close as long as it is a little better at 2-300m. Price is not a concern (within reason).

 

Help.

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/17/2006 at 14:28
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I truely believe that my 1.5-6x42 Nikon  and my 1x Burris come on target just as fast as my aimpoint because at 1X to 1.5X there is just no delay not even a fraction of a second.  The EOTech's big advantage over aimpoint is it's wider field of view. The Nikon 1.5-6x42 is a 30mm tube has a relatively wide field of view and is incredibly fast. Look at one for yourself.  Just because your reticle is glowing EOTech  red not old school black does not make it come on target faster. Speed acquiring the target is determined by how much delay there is between when you point the gun toward the target and when you acquire a useable sight picture. The 1.5-6x42 is as fast it's just not glowing red, but then again you don't ever have to have the right battery when you are in the middle of nowhere.The only place that the EOTech has a big advantage is in darkness and there it and the other red dots and tritium scopes have it hands down. I would go to a  Trijicon way before I would go to a CQT. With a Trijucon you have tritium illumination and don't have to worry about batteries but after about 10 yrs life it will probably not be useable.

 

Note: the closer the threat - the larger the caliber should be.  At close range a 12 guage with buckshot is ideal unless you have access to someting larger.

Note: rifles smaller than .30 cal are not recommended for dangerous game etc.

 

 

       "I am looking for a compromise"         Don't    You don't want to be compromised!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/17/2006 at 15:36
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This is fun.

 

  Compromised? Thinking you have a CQB optic with that Nikon is a big compromise. I must have missed the story about our snake eaters complaining about carrying a couple of extra AA's, rejoicing that all their engagements were in broad daylight, or wondering when they would finally get that Nikon 1.5-6. By the time someone were to get eye relief and cheek weld with that scope they'll have been double tapped by someone that didn't have to.

 

Next.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/18/2006 at 08:30
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" I am looking for something fast in close but a little more precise than my eotech for the occasional 2-300 meter work"  

 

Sure sounds like a Trijicon 3.5x35 Acog Rifle Scope  to me.  Who do you think uses those?

When you get batteries immersed in water - poof they are gone -So you better double up on your zip lock bags, in the field resupply is the issue - can you count on resupply?  With tritium you don't have to.

 

No - I dont think the Army is going to run down and trade in their red dots for Nikon 1.5-6x42 scopes but for a 200 to 300 meter optic that is bright and fast this Nikon is a viable choice and I'd be willing to bet that any soldier you supplied one to would be quite thankful to have it for a back up sight system, things break - doesnt hurt to have a back up plan. Quick detachable mounts make the use of different types of sights viable for changing conditions. You obviously have not looked at it - you should at least do that before trashing the idea. If you really want  a CQ/T then buy one - you asked for a different opinion - you got it - ACOG is better.

 

The cold hard truth is that most of the war in Iraq is being fought by the National Guard and most of those troops have M-16a2 with iron sights only - no optics. I drove by the range two minutes ago and guess what no optics - all M-16a2s with iron sights. The guys would love to have any optic especially an EOTech or a Trijicon.



Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd
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See:  http://homepage.mac.com/egsimmers/cqb-intermediate.html#leup y2

             Close Quarters and Intermediate-Range Variable Optics:  this will help.

 

Link posted by Cheaptrick in earlier forum -- (Great Yoda of Optics)  Many Thanks

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/18/2006 at 10:16
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 I've got a 3.5x35 on a 20" ar. Its awsome past about 50yds. The whole BAC and eye relief thing is just not as fast for me closer in . I'll post a range report if I get the CQT. Thanks for the feedback. Any one else?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/19/2006 at 13:46
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Any 1 to about variable is as fast as any dot or Eotech. Get a Pact timer and some steel targets and try it, it is proven every week end at IPSC 3 gun matches. Low power variables are still the optic of choice on heavies for dangerous game, and I can't think of any reason why a person wouldn't consider this as important as CQB. Aimpoints are more like scout scopes, they allow both eyes open and forward mounting. Any good scout scope is not only as fast as an Eo it is good to 300 yds. The ACOG is the best compromise. The Leo fails on almost all counts. Although a rear mount the ACOG can be used with both eyes open and as a "dot"  in the dark, and still allows "refined" shots to 300 yds.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2006 at 10:22
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That must be why all the dboys, seals or rangers that I've ever seen used low power variables.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/21/2006 at 12:15
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They take what Uncle Sam buys them thats why we have M9s - a 9mm piece of junk and .223 which require multiple strikes to incapacitate.  When you carry the governments gun for a living like I do you don't get a choice - you take what they issue. It was just this year that my buddies in AF Security Forces finally got M4s with aimpoints on them. Last year they had some old old M16s that had been converted to A2 (single & 3 round burst). Now don't be so narrow minded: look at this type scope before you trash the idea. Here is (SURPRISE) another low power variable to consider and this one will work just fine all night long and gather a lot more light than that tiny 14mm glass on the CQT.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/21/2006 at 18:16
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I stand by my last statement. I appreciate the fact that you are trying to broaden my horizons here. Low power variable scopes are very versatile. They are a second rate choice for CQB.

 

Please don't put the groups I mentioned in the same light as AF SP's. I've worked with both... there is no comparison. The people I mentioned are the best trained CQ killers in the world.  The only scopes you'll see in those goups are on the sniper teams. Everyone else has dot sights (aimpoints and eo's), with the occasional acog mixed in (not on the delta entry teams though). The groups do not have traditoinal govt. budget constraints, they'll get what they want / need.

 

I really am looking to bridge the gap between an eotech and an acog. I know the cq/t is not very well thought of on this board. But every time a run into somebody that has one they love it. AND they are not interested in selling it.

 

 All this helps. I really do appreciate the input.

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A well trained pistol shooter is faster than a long weapon shooter in CQ. Notice I said faster not better trained, etc. While considering possiblites- a front mounted rear sight, long weapon such that the grasp on the weapon by the pointing hand and a grip similiar to a pistol by the fire control hand, is faster than either a dot, scope, or ACOG. Next time you get a chance check out a well set up AK47 such that the rear sight has been replace with a high quality night sight and the front post the same. This configuration comes closer to the upper body turret positioning needed to provide the pivoting in fast follow up shots. Of course this doesn't help with your long shots. Check out the new posting from Chris on the ACOG -Doctor set up.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/22/2006 at 19:23
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"I am looking for something fast in close but a little more precise than my eotech for the occasional 2-300 meter work"

 

I must be missing something here - You are obvioulsly sold on Mark 4 1-3x14mm CQ/T  http://www.leupold.com/products/tactical_products/Leupold_Ma rk_4_CQT.htm

 

    I  suggested a 1.5-6x42 Nikon Monarch Gold which for most people would be a good choice (because they don't play late at night) but you want a true illuminated tactical scope - so I say Trijicon ACOG or 1.5-6x40 Burris Tactical that has an illuminated reticle plus the 40mm objective & 30mm tube so it gathers more light than the 14 mm objective of the CQ/T,  I think it will work better at night (40mm vs 14mm). Plus go to double the magnification to 6x a big bonus at 2-300 meters. You already have an EOtech on one weapon for close tactical work but you are not happy with it at   2-300 meter range. The center of the EOtech being one MOA or 3in at 300 meters - (works for me). You know what - you are the one paying for it so if you want a CQ/T then buy one and use it in good health - I hope it keeps you safe, at least they run on AA batteries so it shouldn't be nearly as much of a pain to find a battery for as my aimpoint.  After all I like my Leupold Tactical scopes, I just happen to like the ones with more magnification.

 

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I love my eotech. I think what I'm definitely sold on is the idea something different. And the AA battery thing is a big plus (all my portable electronics, illumination etc. are AA). Thanks again for your input. Stay safe.

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Carried a CQ/T on my M4 for about a year in Al Anbar Province. This is a fine optic for your short (50m) to medium ( - 300m) engagements. But come on buddy, for close in work ( room clearing) sight in over your front sight post and hold at his gut and keep pulling the trigger till he goes down. Or be high speed and use your Eotec/Aimpoint. Point being, Using an optic with magnification on it will slow down your target accuirement enough for you to get dead. But you can always turn the power down to 1.5x before you go in. That is if you remember in the heat of the moment.
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 Thanks for your service and the input. Back in the day (Panama in '89 and Desert Storm in '91... nothing compared to your war) irons were all we had. Good luck and Godspeed.  

 

P.S. If you have to go back would you want the CQT again?

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