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leupold durability

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dhdoyle View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dhdoyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/12/2010 at 14:58
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Unfortunately, other than the aluminum components of their rifle scopes, the assembly of rifle scopes, and scope mounts, almost all of the remainder of Leupold's product are outsourced these days.  

To be honest, that's one thing that I have the least problem with. If you write good contract specs, do proper QA, and enforce quality requirements, it doesn't matter where parts are made. Heck, the best CNC tools are built outside the US. You can find good machine shops all over the world. Frankly, it sounds like Leupold's biggest problem is the assembly step in the USA. The "canted reticle" problem sounds like a typical example.

On another note - all we have to work with is anecdotal reports. It's not like anybody is going to publish their highly confidential warranty rates or specific failure statistics. Anybody with access to that kind of info signs a Non-Disclosure Agreement. At best, we get better insight when a distributor says something like, "Beware this scope. Our return rate is high." God bless every distributor that mentions something like that.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/12/2010 at 22:59
Originally posted by dhdoyle dhdoyle wrote:

Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Unfortunately, other than the aluminum components of their rifle scopes, the assembly of rifle scopes, and scope mounts, almost all of the remainder of Leupold's product are outsourced these days.  

To be honest, that's one thing that I have the least problem with. If you write good contract specs, do proper QA, and enforce quality requirements, it doesn't matter where parts are made. Heck, the best CNC tools are built outside the US. You can find good machine shops all over the world.


You are 100% correct; it doesn't matter, from a product quality standpoint.  I work in a shop with over 150 of those CNC machines, primarily made in Japan.  However, as someone whose career is in manufacturing, I hate to see so much of our manufacturing ability leave the US.  It's not as if I don't understand the reasons why; it's just that it troubles me that we seem to be headed toward losing our ability to make things in this country.  I have no problem with buying goods made outside the US per se, but I do have a philosophical problem with my money supporting a Communist country who oppresses and murders its own citizens, and who has ICBMs in its arsenal aimed at us, whom it views as its main enemy.


Edited by RifleDude - March/12/2010 at 23:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/13/2010 at 11:00
Every thing is aimed at making Americans reliant upon others. We tax the living Hell out of our corporations, and working families. Reward those that do not want to work, and make it more appealing from a financial standpoint to outsource our jobs to overseas. Now they are determined to give us health care, and that is going to further tax domestic business, and further send jobs to overseas out sourcing.
Cut taxes on domestic business that utilizes domestic workers. Get the Fed out of our businesses. They make decisions that do nothing but hurt employment numbers domestically. Tax the living hell out of overseas outsourcing, to help finance those that are unemployed until they find work. Make the opposite decisions that our elected numbskulls are making.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cowski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/13/2010 at 11:37
hey guys most of our politicians are lawyers so vote on non lawyers for a change. now lets get back on leupold durability. i have only used a limited number of scopes . but i am real hard on them . leupold held up ,others didn't. without optics talk i would just of got another leupold .but now i wonder if new ones are good as old ones. or others are better? 
never corner something meaner than you are jbc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pcrage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/15/2010 at 13:54
tough crowd...
 
Rifledude:
 
You must have missed my point...."better" scopes are those that are "better" and "better" means less failures (unless you have some other measure of better or worse)...there is internal logic in this..I am not picking a brand as worse or better...just stating that better scopes fail less.  Do you disagree with this?  You have concluded that I was criticizing Leupold and promoting a different brand but I was not.
 
In any event "in my experience" I have owned scopes that were "better" than the leupold scopes "I " owned measured by failure rate.
 
Is this "better"?
 
PS As far as challenging my honesty...you don't even know me and you say this...sad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/15/2010 at 14:18
What RD is saying is that vendors have a far better idea of scope durability based on return rates. The labels themselves are not going to say the exact numbers for they will skew them to misrepresent actual return rates for durability issues. The vendors if honest will not skew the information. SWFA has some very concrete info that is used in the scope scale. There are some scopes that are opticall less than others in the same category because they have proven themselves very durable, and thus are justified to be ranked where they are. There are very few here that are completely brand loyal to any particular. If there is something better as a whole we are more than willing to share that knowledge.
 
Edit to add:
 
Your evidence is subject to your luck as well. Some have only ever owned Leupold and never had a problem. Others have only ever owned one Leupold and had it fail. This is the type of evidence that is highly subject to scrutiny, not just by us here, but by all who read the topic in question as to the best or worst scope brand available. Do you now understand where RifleDude was coming from? 


Edited by cyborg - March/15/2010 at 14:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/15/2010 at 14:22
Originally posted by pcrage pcrage wrote:

 
Rifledude:
 
You must have missed my point...."better" scopes are those that are "better" and "better" means less failures (unless you have some other measure of better or worse)...there is internal logic in this..I am not picking a brand as worse or better...just stating that better scopes fail less.  Do you disagree with this?  You have concluded that I was criticizing Leupold and promoting a different brand but I was not.
 
In any event "in my experience" I have owned scopes that were "better" than the leupold scopes "I " owned measured by failure rate.
 
Is this "better"?
 
PS As far as challenging my honesty...you don't even know me and you say this...sad.


I'm not challenging your honesty at all; I'm challenging what you said, or what you appeared to be saying.  It's called debate.  There's a huge difference.  I agree that less failures = "better," but since the discussion was about Leupold durability and you commented on the topic, I was asking you how you know definitively which scopes are truly "better" from the standpoint of durability.  Once you get beyond a certain quality level, a good argument can be made for many scopes being "better" for some application or another.  All scopes have some rate of mechanical failure, and the people who have had these failures are far less likely to agree with someone else declaring it is "better" than another scope.  Your personal experience influences which ones YOU THINK are better, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are "better" in an absolute sense because you can't know what % of those scopes in use actually fail.  If I buy a highly touted, high end scope and it fails on me, I'm not likely to be left with the impression it is "better" even if nobody else I talk to who owns the same scope has had the same failures.  I don't think most people can really know what is "better" or "best," they can only relate their opinions and experiences and what they think of the product for their preferred application.  There's nothing wrong with relating opinions and experiences -- that's what this forum is for -- but anytime someone makes definitive statements that product "X" is better or worse than another on an internet forum, that statement is likely to be challenged.  Especially when the claim included a comment that "most people" agree.

Or, maybe I totally misunderstood the context of your statement and you were just pointing out that mechanical durability is the true measure of whether a scope is "better," and weren't implying that Leupolds were among those that weren't.  Since the thread topic is about Leupold durability, I think it was reasonable for the average person to assume you were referring to Leupold. 


Edited by RifleDude - March/15/2010 at 14:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/15/2010 at 14:39
By the way, I either currently own or have owned scopes from most brands you can think of.  The list of scope brands I haven't owned would be much shorter than those I have.  I have had very few scope failures, regardless of brand, and I do a lot of shooting.  Of the scope failures I've had or witnessed, 2 were Leupolds that I've owned.  One was with an old Vari-X II 3-9X40 that would not hold zero, and one was a canted reticle in a Vari-X III 3.5-10X40.  The rest were from cheap scopes that my brother, my father, and friends of mine owned.  From this, should I conclude that Leupold has a high failure rate, or should I instead conclude that my experience was too small a sample size to draw a conclusion about Leupold products?  I think the latter. 

There is a high profile gun writer who frequents this forum who has had bad luck with mechanical failures with a particular high end scope from brand "S" costing over $1K.  He said his local gun store quit carrying this particular scope series because of a high rate of returns.  He has had mechanical failures from other high end brands, one starting with the letter "Z" as well.  Should we assume his experiences are typical enough to draw conclusions about the durability of these scopes?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pcrage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/15/2010 at 14:51
I suppose with all this time on your hands you must be right.
 
happy trails.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote magshooter1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/15/2010 at 14:56
In my own personal experience(s) Leupold is one of the most reliable scope brands available.  I own 7 6 of which are in the older Vari-X III line, the other an EFR Rimfire/Airgun version.  Never had any problems with any of them.  I have owned a couple from their lower tiers Vari-X and Vari-X II ultralight, and never experienced any issues with them either.  Don't have any friends that have had issues either.  I have used their CS on a couple of occasions and was very impressed; the most memorable was the Vari-X 3x9x40AO that I bought used (<$200) and later found it had a loose reticle (hard to determine this when holding it in your hands) Leupold replaced it (with a Vari-X II 4x12x40AO - about $400 retail at the time) because the scope was so long out of production they didn't have parts for it.  The only failure I have ever experienced with a Leupold product was the failure of a rear (windage adjustable) ring.  And I have a friend who had the same thing happen.  Both occurrences happened on hard kicking rifles.  Mine was on a .35 Whelen shooting 225g Noslers.  My friends was on a .300 RUM.  I switched to Leupold Dual Dovetails and he switched to Warne.  No more problems.  So no issues here with Leupold durability.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/15/2010 at 15:08
Originally posted by pcrage pcrage wrote:

I suppose with all this time on your hands you must be right.
 
happy trails.
 
 


Nice comeback.Excellent

Thanks for your participation in reasoned debate and understanding how someone could easily misconstrue your comments, given the context of the discussion.

I wasn't trying to attack you personally.
Ted


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/15/2010 at 15:12
No... Ted is right. No supposition needed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cowski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/10/2010 at 01:11
just think all i wanted to know was if my new leupold would be as tuff as my old one.
never corner something meaner than you are jbc
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