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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/20/2007 at 18:34
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Do you have any and if so do you like the performance, are they worth the money?

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Lazzeroni is sneaky.  They entered the market primarily to compete with the Wby. calibers with silly little names.  They make fine rifles, but if you think Wby. basic rifles are expensive, check out the prices they want.  They do their ballistic testing at 3000 feet above sea level with 28 inch barrels and still their ballistics in some calibers and bullet combinations still do not beat the Wby. calibers in similar combinations.  If you take into count how they obtained their ballistics, they would be either on par or consistently inferior to most Wby. calibers, but still posting great numbers.  Wby. has been know and documented for their ballistics and accuracy.  I have read the Lazzeronis are accurate, but have no first hand knowlege of just how accurate, but would be they are fairly accurate.  Expensive though and the ammo makes Wby. ammo look down right cheap.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2007 at 08:34
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there rifles start out at like 5500
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2007 at 11:42
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Most lazzzeroni and weatherbys are overbore capacity resulting in short barrel life what does worth the money mean?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2007 at 11:54
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I don't think they are worth the money. Their cartridges are definitely good performers. But I think they push the envelope and are beyond the point of diminishing return. Huge capacity for mediocre gain over more established screamers. What they do offer for those with money is uniqueness. Like has been said, "If you build it they will come". The quality of their manufacure comes with that price, too. The machining on the bolt takes some time, even though it is CNC, because a lot of metal is removed. It is different looking. We don't see many of them around here but they do show up at hunting shows. So, I have only handled and not shot one.

 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2007 at 13:49
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the thing that i saw and went oh my god to was the ballistic numbers for the big stuff the .416 metor and the other big ones they were throwing volkwagons at 30-06 like speed, they must kick without a muzzle break something fierce!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2007 at 14:40
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Check out the new Outdoor Life. Speaking of throwing Volkswagons, they compare the 16 inch guns ballistics to the .308. Yeah, right.......
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2007 at 14:44
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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Check out the new Outdoor Life. Speaking of throwing Volkswagons, they compare the 16 inch guns ballistics to the .308. Yeah, right.......

 

say what??

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Oh yeah, 16 inch ME in millions of ft/lbs..................
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2007 at 14:55
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im confused whats to compare??
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2007 at 18:47
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

Most lazzzeroni and weatherbys are overbore capacity resulting in short barrel life what does worth the money mean?

WHAT IS IT WITH OVER BORE.  ARE YOU THE ONLY PERSON THAT DOES NOT BUY OVER BORED CARTRIDGES.  GET OFF OF IT.  SHOOT RIMFIRES AND YOU WILL BE FINE.  BY THE WAY, WHAT IS YOUR FAVORITE RIFLE AND CALIBER.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2007 at 18:53
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From SAAMI:

OVER-BORE CAPACITY
A firearm chambered for a cartridge which contains more powder than can normally be burned in that bore diameter and volume.

What is normally? Seems pretty subjective and open to change.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2007 at 19:40
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i'd say so

 

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The term "over-bore capacity" is a rather subjective term used to describe a very real issue.  The big deal about an overbore capacity case is twofold:  diminishing returns on powder used vs. obtainable velocities and rate of throat erosion.  In the first situation, you simply use up a lot of powder and don't gain much additional performance relative to increased consumption of powder over some lesser capacity cases using much less powder charge.  The latter is really the big issue.  Anytime you burn a huge amount of powder and force hot gases through a comparatively small bore diameter, rapid throat erosion in your barrel results.  It is unavoidable.  This is a problem with all so-called "magnum" cases to some extent, as well as with cartridges like the .220 Swift.  I can tell you from experience of having to rebarrel rifles with shot out bores immediately forward of the chamber that the average super high velocity or magnum chambering will yield about half the barrel life of a more moderate cartridge with muzzle velocities below about 3200 fps.  It's not uncommon for a big cased magnum chambered rifle to get between 1000 and 3000 rounds of "accurate" barrel life, depending on several factors such as rate of fire (too much heat too rapidly), average powder charge used, and the type of barrel steel.  What also masks the issue is the fact that some rifles will continue to shoot very well with significant throat erosion present.  I have seen this time and again, as my shooting buddies and I have tried many different cartridges in many different rifles shooting thousands of rounds annually.  You can easily see throat erosion in a borescope, as it has the appearance of dried, cracked mud or reptile scales.  This seldom is a huge issue in a big game hunting rifle because the average shooter neither fires a lot of shots nor shoots in rapid succession sufficient to heat up the barrel of a big game hunting rifle in a typical season, and during a lifetime, a typical deer/elk rifle doesn't see that many rounds.  Even if one did put a lot of rounds through a big game rifle, most hunters have never examined the throats of their barrels, wouldn't know what to look for if they did, and even if the throat was badly eroded, chances are the rifle might still shoot well enough for big game in typical hunting conditions and distances.

 

As for Lazzeroni rifles, if someone gave me one, I'd probably keep it, as they are well-made.  Other than that, I think they are wildly overpriced, and they use barrel burner cartridges that provide no "real-world" advantage ("advantage" is only on paper) to existing magnum rounds that are far cheaper to shoot and easier to find ammo and brass for.  I just don't see the appeal, but that's just me...

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2007 at 10:39
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

The term "over-bore capacity" is a rather subjective term used to describe a very real issue.  The big deal about an overbore capacity case is twofold:  diminishing returns on powder used vs. obtainable velocities and rate of throat erosion.  In the first situation, you simply use up a lot of powder and don't gain much additional performance relative to increased consumption of powder over some lesser capacity cases using much less powder charge.  The latter is really the big issue.  Anytime you burn a huge amount of powder and force hot gases through a comparatively small bore diameter, rapid throat erosion in your barrel results.  It is unavoidable.  This is a problem with all so-called "magnum" cases to some extent, as well as with cartridges like the .220 Swift.  I can tell you from experience of having to rebarrel rifles with shot out bores immediately forward of the chamber that the average super high velocity or magnum chambering will yield about half the barrel life of a more moderate cartridge with muzzle velocities below about 3200 fps.  It's not uncommon for a big cased magnum chambered rifle to get between 1000 and 3000 rounds of "accurate" barrel life, depending on several factors such as rate of fire (too much heat too rapidly), average powder charge used, and the type of barrel steel.  What also masks the issue is the fact that some rifles will continue to shoot very well with significant throat erosion present.  I have seen this time and again, as my shooting buddies and I have tried many different cartridges in many different rifles shooting thousands of rounds annually.  You can easily see throat erosion in a borescope, as it has the appearance of dried, cracked mud or reptile scales.  This seldom is a huge issue in a big game hunting rifle because the average shooter neither fires a lot of shots nor shoots in rapid succession sufficient to heat up the barrel of a big game hunting rifle in a typical season, and during a lifetime, a typical deer/elk rifle doesn't see that many rounds.  Even if one did put a lot of rounds through a big game rifle, most hunters have never examined the throats of their barrels, wouldn't know what to look for if they did, and even if the throat was badly eroded, chances are the rifle might still shoot well enough for big game in typical hunting conditions and distances.

 

As for Lazzeroni rifles, if someone gave me one, I'd probably keep it, as they are well-made.  Other than that, I think they are wildly overpriced, and they use barrel burner cartridges that provide no "real-world" advantage ("advantage" is only on paper) to existing magnum rounds that are far cheaper to shoot and easier to find ammo and brass for.  I just don't see the appeal, but that's just me...

 

Good explanation.

 

I will disagree with you about the Lazzeroni rifle however.  If someone were to give me one, I absolutely WOULD sell it.  I could get a lot of other highly-coveted gear for the $3500 - $4500 I would surely be able to get for it.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/22/2007 at 10:41
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Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

Most lazzzeroni and weatherbys are overbore capacity resulting in short barrel life what does worth the money mean?

WHAT IS IT WITH OVER BORE.  ARE YOU THE ONLY PERSON THAT DOES NOT BY OVER BORED CARTRIDGES.  GET OFF OF IT.  SHOT RIMFIRES AND YOU WILL BE FINE.  BY THE WAY, WHAT IS YOUR FAVORITE RIFLE AND CALIBER.

 

Dolphin,

 

What's the problem here?   

 

Dale has brought up a legitimate issue.  Why are you yelling at the guy?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 06:52
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Originally posted by lucznik lucznik wrote:

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

[QUOTE=Dale Clifford]Most lazzzeroni and weatherbys are overbore capacity resulting in short barrel life what does worth the money mean?

WHAT IS IT WITH OVER BORE.  ARE YOU THE ONLY PERSON THAT DOES NOT BY OVER BORED CARTRIDGES.  GET OFF OF IT.  SHOT RIMFIRES AND YOU WILL BE FINE.  BY THE WAY, WHAT IS YOUR FAVORITE RIFLE AND CALIBER.

 

Dolphin,

 

What's the problem here?   

 

Dale has brought up a legitimate issue.  Why are you yelling at the guy?

[/QUOTE

 

 

The point is quite simple.  He has written in other post like he was root.  He has crapped all over another guy for buying a rifle, that the man was quite proud off.  Then he poops all over his parade for the rifle being over bored.  That sets the background for why my post is such as it is.  Everyone here knows the pluses and minuses of an over bored cartridge and rifledude in his usual intellectual and courteous manner has explained the issue quite eloquently.  Now, to go back a few steps, I stated to him, that as far as I am concerned, I hunt my over bored rifles and will probably never shoot out the barrels.  He then claimed to have shot out, multiple barrels and his uncle killed every species with a Sears and Roebuck 270.  Yes, that is what he said.  So, in a flippant manner, I suggested a new concept, if you spend a 1000 bucks on a rifle, just replace the barrel if you shoot it out.  Now, that you know the background, you know why I stated what I said and in the manner I stated it.  Read all the posts please.  And, since you were not involved, I don not believe, on the Wby. 257 posts, you would not know alot of the background.  He makes root look tame sometimes. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 06:55
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

The term "over-bore capacity" is a rather subjective term used to describe a very real issue.  The big deal about an overbore capacity case is twofold:  diminishing returns on powder used vs. obtainable velocities and rate of throat erosion.  In the first situation, you simply use up a lot of powder and don't gain much additional performance relative to increased consumption of powder over some lesser capacity cases using much less powder charge.  The latter is really the big issue.  Anytime you burn a huge amount of powder and force hot gases through a comparatively small bore diameter, rapid throat erosion in your barrel results.  It is unavoidable.  This is a problem with all so-called "magnum" cases to some extent, as well as with cartridges like the .220 Swift.  I can tell you from experience of having to rebarrel rifles with shot out bores immediately forward of the chamber that the average super high velocity or magnum chambering will yield about half the barrel life of a more moderate cartridge with muzzle velocities below about 3200 fps.  It's not uncommon for a big cased magnum chambered rifle to get between 1000 and 3000 rounds of "accurate" barrel life, depending on several factors such as rate of fire (too much heat too rapidly), average powder charge used, and the type of barrel steel.  What also masks the issue is the fact that some rifles will continue to shoot very well with significant throat erosion present.  I have seen this time and again, as my shooting buddies and I have tried many different cartridges in many different rifles shooting thousands of rounds annually.  You can easily see throat erosion in a borescope, as it has the appearance of dried, cracked mud or reptile scales.  This seldom is a huge issue in a big game hunting rifle because the average shooter neither fires a lot of shots nor shoots in rapid succession sufficient to heat up the barrel of a big game hunting rifle in a typical season, and during a lifetime, a typical deer/elk rifle doesn't see that many rounds.  Even if one did put a lot of rounds through a big game rifle, most hunters have never examined the throats of their barrels, wouldn't know what to look for if they did, and even if the throat was badly eroded, chances are the rifle might still shoot well enough for big game in typical hunting conditions and distances.

 

As for Lazzeroni rifles, if someone gave me one, I'd probably keep it, as they are well-made.  Other than that, I think they are wildly overpriced, and they use barrel burner cartridges that provide no "real-world" advantage ("advantage" is only on paper) to existing magnum rounds that are far cheaper to shoot and easier to find ammo and brass for.  I just don't see the appeal, but that's just me...

EXCELLENT POST AS USUAL.  AND THANKS FOR CLARIFYING THE ISSUE ABOUT BARREL LIFE EXTENDING TO PAST 1000 ROUNDS.  THE NUMBER 1000 GETS STUCK IN EVERYONES MIND, LIKE IT IS A MAGICAL NUMBER.  IT IS KIND OF LIKE, WHEN THE EXPIRATION DATE ON A PILL BOTTLE COMES UP, THE PILLS SUDDENLY TURN INEFFECTIVE.  KEEP GIVING US GOOD INFO.

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not to try to start anymore conflict but i was asking a buddy of mine who was a marine a few years ago, and i asked him how long do the barrels on the m60 last, he said the only numbers he could tell me for sure is that it takes approxamtely 600-800 rounds consecutively without ever letting go of the trigger to wear out a barrel, i said isnt that more like a warped barrel not a shot out barrel, well yeah but its still wore out, so i find it hard to believe that 1000 is a reliable figure, look at the guys in vietnam, i doubt they got done with a huge firefight and when they got back to camp they all replaced there barrels cause they had shot more than a thousand rounds out of the m-16.maybe i'm overthinking the whole thing but 1000 rounds to me doesnt seem right.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/23/2007 at 07:41
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REMEMBER WHAT SAID, LAZZERONI, WITH RESPECT TO THEIR RIFLE BALLISTICS ARE SNEAKY.  THEY GENERATE THEIR NUMBERS AT AN ALTITUDE OF 3000 FEET WITH 28 INCH BARRELS, NOT COUNTING A MUZZLE BREAK.  THATS GOOD FOR A FAIR NUMBER OF FPS.  ROUGHLY 50 TO 100 FPS FOR THE BARREL ( SOME WOULD SAY 25 TO 50 FPS, BUT GIVEN THE OVER BORE OF THE CALIBER, I WOULD SAY CLOSER TO THE FORMER) AND I WOULD HAVE TO GO TO MY BALLISTICS CALCLULATOR TO SEE HOW MUCH THE ALTITUDE DIFFERENCE WOULD MAKE, BUT GUESSING, I WOULD SAY, ANOTHER 100 FPS.



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i was just looking over the ball chart at lazzeroni's page and they put right at the bottom these numbers were achieved at 3000 ft using a 27inch barrel and shorter barrels will reduce velocity by 30 to 85 fps per inch of barrel removed.
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

not to try to start anymore conflict but i was asking a buddy of mine who was a marine a few years ago, and i asked him how long do the barrels on the m60 last, he said the only numbers he could tell me for sure is that it takes approxamtely 600-800 rounds consecutively without ever letting go of the trigger to wear out a barrel, i said isnt that more like a warped barrel not a shot out barrel, well yeah but its still wore out, so i find it hard to believe that 1000 is a reliable figure, look at the guys in vietnam, i doubt they got done with a huge firefight and when they got back to camp they all replaced there barrels cause they had shot more than a thousand rounds out of the m-16.maybe i'm overthinking the whole thing but 1000 rounds to me doesnt seem right.

 

There is no such thing as a reliable figure that always applies, because it's all dependent on several variables.  It also depends on what your accuracy needs/expectations are.  For example, short range benchrest cartridges such as the PPC rounds are much easier on barrels, yet BR shooters generally notice a significant loss of competitive accuracy in premium custom barrels after about 2000 rounds.  Give that same rifle with the shot out barrel to the average shooter who's never shot a BR rifle and they'll still shoot the best groups of their lives and be amazed at the accuracy.  It's not at all uncommon to observe significant throat erosion in a magnum rifle after 1000 rounds, but that may or may not be critical depending on the intended use of the rifle.

 

Suffice it to say, a magnum rifle will get much less barrel life than a rifle chambered in a "standard" cartridge, but how much less depends on so many factors that there's no way to come up with a 100% certain "rule of thumb" and even if you did, it may or may not matter, and you may or may not ever reach that magical number in a lifetime of hunting.  I don't shoot my big game hunting rifles anywhere near as much as I do my varmint rifles and rimfires, so it isn't a huge concern to me.

 

Again, every advantage any cartridge ever provides comes at one price or another.  Every equipment decision we make involves a series of tradeoffs.  There is no such thing as any piece of equipment having only advantages and no disadvantages.

 

 

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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

i was just looking over the ball chart at lazzeroni's page and they put right at the bottom these numbers were achieved at 3000 ft using a 27inch barrel and shorter barrels will reduce velocity by 30 to 85 fps per inch of barrel removed.

 

50 fps per inch is a good "rule of thumb" for most cartridge/barrel length combinations -- up to a point.

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im not going to disagree with what you are saying, but i spend equal amounts of time shooting all my guns, cause like you it a fun thing to do!! i spend more time running test loads through my hunting rifles then i do actually hunting, i guess i dont care if there is a magical number now, but i dont want any other calibers to be hyped out of extinction. or people shy away from buying such calibers because of hyped up opinions that's all.
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

i was just looking over the ball chart at lazzeroni's page and they put right at the bottom these numbers were achieved at 3000 ft using a 27inch barrel and shorter barrels will reduce velocity by 30 to 85 fps per inch of barrel removed.

 

50 fps per inch is a good "rule of thumb" for most cartridge/barrel length combinations -- up to a point.

 

I've mentioned this before but, just to recap:

 

I have a Ruger Compact Rifle in 7-08 that I recently chronographed with 154 and 120 gr. bullets.  The 154s showed an average loss of a total of about 75 fps from published velocities.  The 120s showed an average loss of a total of only about 90 fps from published velocities.  This is despite the fact that there is 9.5 inches of barrel "loss" with this rifle. (It has a 16.5" barrel and published figures were from a 26" test barrel.) These velocities were acheived without exceeding maximum published loads and without any signs of excessive pressure.

 

That comes to a average loss of 7.9 fps/inch for the 154s and about 9.5 fps/inch for the 120s.  This experience has led me to throw out all "rules of thumb" in favor of chronographing all new loads.

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