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Law enforcement Sharp shooter/sniper

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/28/2008 at 12:23
Bigdaddy0381 View Drop Down
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What are the legalities of a law enforcement sharp shooter/sniper reloading?

 

 

I’m thinking if it went to court one could say the sniper was premeditating the kill, But on the other hand he was trying to get the best possible equipment to use for the task at hand.

 

What are yawl’s thoughts?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/28/2008 at 12:27
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Not sure I follow.
But, don't "most" LE snipers use factory ammo? Federal or Black Hills?  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/28/2008 at 12:31
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Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Not sure I follow.
But, don't "most" LE snipers use factory ammo? Federal or Black Hills?  
 

Yes from what I understand they do use factory ammo, But if one reloaded his own what would the legalities be. Say if there was a stand off and the sniper took out the bad guy. The bad guy’s mom/wife who ever found out he loaded his on ammo. Could this be the grounds for a law suite. On the grounds of him making his own shells (premeditated) that caused the death of bad guy?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/28/2008 at 13:55
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I doubt it, because he took the job knowing what it might entail, that initself would under that guise be premeditated as well. It's a job nothing more, sometimes they have to kill, just as the Military, or any other Policeman, and even sometimes the armed citizen has the responsibility to act, in order to save lives.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/28/2008 at 14:00
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It would be a civial matter.  Department regulation would normall prevent it in order to pass the liablity on to somebody else.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/28/2008 at 14:01
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So basicaly that why factory ammo is used?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/28/2008 at 14:04
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These guys don't reload because they get their ammo for free.
 
There's no liability if they should use their own ammunition, but there may be departmental prohibitions.  Our local Fast Action Repsonse Team ( no, they didn't spell it out before ordering the patches)  just went to wally world and bought a box of pmc and called it good.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/28/2008 at 14:07
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Originally posted by Mike McDonald Mike McDonald wrote:

Our local Fast Action Repsonse Team ( no, they didn't spell it out before ordering the patches)  just went to wally world and bought a box of pmc and called it good.
 
I'd really like one of those patches, Mike!!
Laugh
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/28/2008 at 14:09
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Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Originally posted by Mike McDonald Mike McDonald wrote:

Our local Fast Action Repsonse Team ( no, they didn't spell it out before ordering the patches)  just went to wally world and bought a box of pmc and called it good.
 
I'd really like one of those patches, Mike!!
Laugh
 
then you would be a member of the FART team.
 
Okay thanks guys I was just woundering about that for some reason.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/28/2008 at 14:12
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F.A.R.T. I LIKE IT ALOT!!!!!!! LMAO I could use one fo those patches My hunting experiences should qualify me.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/28/2008 at 17:59
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 I don't know about Law Enforcement, but a Military sniper could possibly get himself into hot water for violating certain terms of the Hague Convention Rules of Land Warfare (?) if he used certain types of bullets in his handloads.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/28/2008 at 18:06
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Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

 I don't know about Law Enforcement, but a Military sniper could possibly get himself into hot water for violating certain terms of the Hague Convention Rules of Land Warfare (?) if he used certain types of bullets in his handloads.

 
I saw recently on a documentary, that the Marines at Quantico make the ammo for all or some of the USMC snipers/DM's rifles.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/28/2008 at 18:54
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 The funny thing is that they are not allowed to use "hollow-point" bullets or soft-point hunting bullets, only FMJs.
 They DO use Sierra Matchkings, and are allowed  to do so even though they do have a hollow tip. The ruling was that the hollow tip in that case is a by-product of that bullets' manufacturing process, and not an intentionally-implemented "expansion initiator".
 (my quotes).
This was true a few years back, so take it with a grain of salt, it may not be currently correct.


Edited by RONK - April/28/2008 at 18:55
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/29/2008 at 01:31
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Most all law enforcement SERT (special emergency response tactical) groups use Federal or Black Hill ammo, but mostly federal. I don't think there could be any liability for the reloading but as Silver said I don't think there is a department in the US that would allow that by policy. Most teams / snipers carry several types of ammo based on needs of penetration, such as doing an entry in a trailer house with very light walls or a school, etc.
The first thing they do if you use deadly force is take your guns fired and ammo for that gun and send it to the lab for testing. This is one of the reasons they use standard ammo. Then they take you to the hospital and get a legal draw of blood or urine and send it off. What matters is 1-your training, 2-your certification, 3-and you use proper force based your training and on the several hundred years of case law in our country. It almost makes you feel like you've done something wrong when they take your stuff, even your clothes usually, and then put you on leave until the investigation is done. Anyway, these guys shoot a lot and would be taxing on a reloader. I would say premeditated is part of LE or military nature, otherwise you won't last long. However, it may give the courts something to spend years deliberating.
th
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/29/2008 at 13:02
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A LE officer is supposed to use force (if necessary)(under the proper circumstances), if he took out his own hand made RPG, then that's another story. No they can't use excessive force too, its like if I had a gun pointed at some lady's head after already injuring or killing others and and the commanding officer gave the 'green light', i don't think it matters what you shoot, but there are also other laws as to what is "appropriate", ..the reason for policies. Lets put it like this; The cop is always in the right if other officers or civilians are in danger of being killed or severly injured. Protect and Serve.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/29/2008 at 13:31
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All you would need to do to answer this question is spend an hour or so listening to a county prosecutor speak about the rules surrounding the use of "deadly force".  The answer will be very clear.
 
Roy
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/02/2008 at 20:03
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Every agency operates a little differently but by in large they follow the direction set by the F.B.I. because the F.B.I. is the leed agency for investigating excessive use of force compalints therefore if you did it that way because the F.B.I. does it that way you are home free. Any deviation from the way they do business better be very well doccumented as to why you did so. That said Law Enforcement snipers for the most part use either .308 or .223 in Federal Gold Metal match which have Sierra Matchking hollowpoints. The .308 would be a 168 gr.  There are agencies using 300 Win Mag like Secret Service hower SS works under special guidelines to protect Priority Level One assets which includes they will shoot through innocent bystanders to kill a bad guy, we worked under the same guidelines because assets designated Priority Level One and Two represent a loss which could very well alter the U.S. ability to maintain the free society we currently enjoy.  Navy Seal teams have some 300 Win Mags also.  Army Snipers use .308 with 175 gr Sierra Match King bullets manufactured at Lake City under contract from Federal (ATK).  Quite frankly most people do not have the time or skill to make their own bullets in a quality that is consistent and consistency is the primary concern.  One agency I worked for used guidelines where you qualified with your duty gun and demonstrated profeciency with any other firearm which you thought you might wish to carry on duty, I demonstrated profeciency with a bolt action 30-06 deer rifle an AR -15 and a mac 10 suppressed 45 acp.  Rules have evolved as time has progressed - however a lot depends on how knowledgable about firearms the department firearms instructor is. I can say with great certainty that a lot of cops cant shoot very well and dont really like guns. Agencies use the Federal Gold Metal Match and the Black Hills ammo because it is consistent.  That said I have department issued Winchester Ammo on me right now so things do change but like I said there better be a reason if you do something different from the way the F.B. I. does business.

Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - May/02/2008 at 20:04
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/03/2008 at 08:08
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 Interesting and very informative, Wes. Thanks for adding that info...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/01/2008 at 12:52
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I had spent over 20 years as a LEO and no matter what you did you could get sued.  Cops getting sued for nothing is what caused me to retire from active law enforcement.  There are just too many lawyers in our country, all trying to get rich.  That said, I worked a lot of tactical situations in my career as well as routine patrol duty.  It was drilled into our heads, by administration, that you only carry and use FACTORY ammo, usually only ISSUED FACTORY ammo.  There are many LEOs out there that have carried their own handloads, me included, but "people" view that as "gun crazy" in our civil litagation world.  If a lawyer wanted to make a case out of it, he could.  Honest people get sued everyday for the stupidest reasons and sometimes they pay for it for the rest of their lives.  All law enforcement agencies fear law suits, so reduction of liability is paramount.  A law enforcement sniper will be put under the microscope as soon as he/she pulls the trigger.  There will be plenty of ambulance chasing lawyers showing up at the door of the sniper's 'victim'!!!!!
With that said also.................I handload all of my current defensive ammo as a bonifide civilian.  Lawyers don't scare me no more
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/01/2008 at 21:38
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if they always took head shots nosler ballistic tip would be my choice.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/02/2008 at 14:52
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Thanks for the info guys.
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