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Kahles multi-zero for this application?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2009 at 09:34
greywolf View Drop Down
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Recently bought a few scopes (Zeiss Conquest 3-12x56 MC, 3-9x40 Conquest with #4 reticle, and a Pride Fowler 3-9x32 with BDC for 22LR).

The PF scope is for my 8" .300-221 upper for use with subsonic 220 SMK bullets - follows a very similar trajectory and bullet drop as the .22LR, hence the use of the PF scope for it.

But I also have a .300-221 upper with a 16" barrel to be used for supersonic and some subsonic use without the suppressor.

I just discovered the Kahles multi-zero line of scopes.   I would think that the multi-zero would be a great thing to have for the various bullet/sonic combinations I would be using with the 16" upper.  Am I correct in assuming that I could set the various rings for say a subsonic round at 100 yards, 200 yards, and then the other settings for a few supersonic rounds at two-three different ranges?
 
Any other scopes out there that might work well for this application?  My only concern with the Kahles is the warranty issues and customer service support.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2009 at 10:41
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Swarovski with their Ballistic Turret.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2009 at 11:44
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I would look at a Kahles MZ for that.  I set one up for a 22 at a short range zero and dialed it up for 100 plus yards.  Almost the same as the Swaro BT.  Both can be used for the same application.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2009 at 11:52
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wolf, this is probably the first time I've said this but that scope is EXACTLY what you need.
 
It is a great scope, most want it for things I would not recommend it for, but your case is exactly what that scope does best.  With it, you can zero with can and without and keep both zeroes ready to go - that is a huge advantage.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2009 at 15:00
greywolf View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

wolf, this is probably the first time I've said this but that scope is EXACTLY what you need.
 
It is a great scope, most want it for things I would not recommend it for, but your case is exactly what that scope does best.  With it, you can zero with can and without and keep both zeroes ready to go - that is a huge advantage.
Hmm, so you are saying that I can use it with the way it is designed to handle subsonic rounds with the suppressor, subsonic without, and supersonic of perhaps 2 different bullet weights?  Say I zero them all at 100 or 200 yards and then just turn the knob to the proper one depending on the round?
 
Now, the next question is what magnification and objective and model number?  I don't mind paying extra for better glass and features.  1" or 30mm tube?  Most shooting to be done at under 400 yards, a decent amount at dusk or early morning.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2009 at 20:18
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That is correct: use one of the mutliple zero points for subsonic, one for supersonic, and the other for whatever else is needed: no need to mess with the dope, just click in the new zero and shoot (assuming the shot is to be taken at the zeroed range.)
 
If max range is 400, I'd say you really don't need much more than 10X or 12X.  The tube diameter will not make a difference on light transmission so don't worry about that. As for "which one", the sample list has several that would work great, 2.5-10, 3-10, or even 4-12. 
 
 
Keep in mind, this is for a "small" gun, so you are not going to be happy with a freak'in huge scope.  For the sake of size, you might consider a ballistic reticle and forgo the large Kahles. (But the Kahles will sure look damn fine!)
 
 
Let me know if weight and size is an issue for you.  if it is, I can alter some recommendations. 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2009 at 20:33
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Thanks, Rancid.  Weight is always an issue, but I've tramped around Namibia with a 9.5 pound rifle in the past (7.5 pounds, plus buttpad, sling, Zeiss 3-9x40 Conquest, rings, and 3 rounds of .30-06) - but a lighter weight would be nice for the .300 Whisper.
 
The idea of just using one scope for multiple rounds and applications, and just needing to dial to a notch for each application is very appealing, and I've read great things about Kahles glass.  I'm spoiled on Zeiss glass, so I assume the Kahles may even be better.
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2009 at 21:18
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Hey Greywolf
 
Don't you have to install whatever scope you get onto a single upper?  You would not be able to take the scope off one upper and install it on another and maintain zeros.
 
If you install it on one upper and are going to use it for multiple loads then that would be possible.  You would have to pick the load with the flattest trajectory for the zero stop.  Then you dial in one zero for each different load.  I would suspect that most of the marks would be close to each other depending upon the yardage of your zeros for the different loads.
 
You could do the same thing with a marked turret if you have a good memory.
 
This is what the MultiZero turret looks like when zeroed in the normal fashion for a zero at 200 yards progressing up to 600 yards
 
200 yard zero stop (no mark necessary)
400 yard mark
~440 yards (you can read between the marks)
~550 yards
 
You only have those 4 ring marks and a zero stop, so you would have a hard time setting multiple yardage zeros for multiple loads without them crossing over each other and losing the simplicity of the settings.  It would depend upon how many different loads and how many different yardages.
 
One good thing about the MultiZero's is that their claim to fame is in the absolute repeatability of the elevation adjustments or they just wouldn't work.  They only come in 1" tubes and the glass is excellent.  I have a Zeiss Diavari and a Zeiss Conquest and my MultiZero's are comparable to either.
 
One of mine is on a 338RUM and has stood up to it, so far (where's some wood to knock on?!!).


Edited by sakomato - May/05/2009 at 21:22
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2009 at 21:49
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Sakomato - actually, I have two seperate uppers for my .300-221.  One has an 8" barrel and suppressor and will be getting the Pride Fowler 3-9x32 scope with BD reticle.
 
The other upper will have a 16" barrel, can use the suppressor as well, and will mostly be used with supersonic loads but occasionally with subsonics.
 
I just need one scope for that upper that will stay on it permanently as well.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2009 at 23:13
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Hmm, I just had an oddball thought.
 
I wonder if a Zeiss 3-9x40 with Rapid Z 600 reticle could also do the trick here.
 
Let me know if my brain is batty from working too hard tonight in the ER:
 
Get a Zeiss with rapid Z 600 reticle.
 
Punch in data in their ballistic calculator for my supersonic .300 Whisper load, with rifle sighted in at 200.  Standard, normal stuff. 
 
Now, have a card that tells me how much to dial down so that then I have it sighted in for the subsonic load.  From this point, I am "sighted in" at 50 yards, having previously worked this out on the ballistic calculator.  This is a good place to be sighted in at given the drop of the 220 grain SMK bullet at 1050 fps from the muzzle.  Now, according the Zeiss Rapid Z calculator, I'm using 4x as my optimum power, and can use Bar 3 for 84 yards, Bar 4 for 119 yards, Bar 5 for 158 yards, and bar 6 for 200 yards.
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/05/2009 at 23:48
sakomato View Drop Down
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If you are just worried about that one particular load then I would pick the MZ.  The RapidZ seems like it would be complicated and with that rainbow trajectory you could be 5 yards off and it would make a significant difference in point of impact.  At least with the MZ you wouldn't have to remember where to aim for 168 yards.

I have a RapidZ also and love it but it is not following the keep-it-simple principle here. 

To me a marked turret on a Conquest might be best and cheapest.

Have you looked at the scopes with the ballistic reticles made for muzzleloaders?

Edited by sakomato - May/05/2009 at 23:49
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/06/2009 at 07:47
greywolf View Drop Down
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Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

If you are just worried about that one particular load then I would pick the MZ.  The RapidZ seems like it would be complicated and with that rainbow trajectory you could be 5 yards off and it would make a significant difference in point of impact.  At least with the MZ you wouldn't have to remember where to aim for 168 yards.

I have a RapidZ also and love it but it is not following the keep-it-simple principle here. 

To me a marked turret on a Conquest might be best and cheapest.

Have you looked at the scopes with the ballistic reticles made for muzzleloaders?
Are you talking about the Conquest line of scopes here?  Or some other style?
 
Given my usage of the subsonic loads at only out to about 200 yards, I'm wondering about just having some sort of BD reticle design on the scope that would roughly correspong to the drop of the subsonic, but just have the scope set for the supersonic for zero and use the click adjustments for it as-is just for that, but then do holdover using the lines on the reticle for the subsonic.
 
Would that make some sort of sense?  Of course, I'd have to find a reticle that would allow me to do that.
 
Hmm, it seems like the MZ may be the best of the few options available.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/06/2009 at 08:06
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There are many ways to go about this.
 
Yes, a BDC-type reticle will work for you, but you need to zero with the primary round, then figure out where the other rounds falls on the reticle.  There is a very good chance the actual secondary zero will not be directly on a hash mark or aiming point, but you can probably get really close.  Also consider that in stressful situations, it is really tough to not aim center reticle. 
 
The multizero would be about perfect (as would Swaro's ballistic turret) but both are on relatively large scopes.
 
My choice for that gun, given your circumstances, would be something that tops out around 10X.  About the perfect setup would be a 2.5-10x32 Nightforce NXS with NP-R2 reticle.
 
 
It ain't cheap, though.
 
 
 
Kahles glass will be better than your Conquest glass.
 
Even a mil dot will do what you need, just be sure you can keep straight where everything is going.  And doing that will require some serious range time with both rounds - and some very good notes. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/06/2009 at 17:23
sakomato View Drop Down
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Originally posted by greywolf greywolf wrote:

Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

Have you looked at the scopes with the ballistic reticles made for muzzleloaders?
Are you talking about the Conquest line of scopes here?  Or some other style?
  
 
No, actually it is a Nikon with the BDC 250 reticle
 
 
that reticle is made for a rainbow trajectory of the muzzleloader so it might fit your trajectory.
 
I don't have any experience with it though.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/07/2009 at 10:33
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Kahles MultiZero is available on 30mm-tube CS scopes. I have one on my 280AI custom.
 
Not germane to this discussion, I know, but they are available. These scopes are way too big for an AR.  IMO, too big for any black rifle.
 
Texas
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/08/2009 at 10:59
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+1  on mr. coolaids comments about kahles and nf 2.5-10---my kahles glass is excellent and i like the scope---it "feels" like quality and i'm sure the austrians built a fine optic---a well made item should never need warranty service---hummmm......well, what if---sure are a lot of "what if's" in this world today and i feel they shouldn't stand in my way of obtaining a very fine optic---if, per chance, someday it goes tango uniform i will find a repair but in the mean time i will enjoy my kahles---maybe i should buy anotherWink
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