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Kahles CL vs. Zeiss Diavari VM/V

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2008 at 10:29
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Looking at the 3-10x50 CL and the 2.5-10x50 VM/V.  Interested to hear from someone who has actually looked through both these scopes in low light...how does the CL compare to the VM/V?  I hunt in the south where deer don't usually move until just before dark.  Also, are the post on the 4a reticle of the CL considered "heavy?"  Again, I prefer a heavier reticle for low light.  Thanks. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2008 at 10:32
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i bet rifledude can tell you about them both i know he has a cl and vm/v
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2008 at 10:56
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Welcome, jbb9166!
 
I own the Zeiss Diavari VM/V 2.5-10X50 and I do own a Kahles CL, but not the 3-10X50.  However, I also own a Kahles CB 2.5-10X50, which is essentially the same optically as the CL series except in 30mm tube.
 
I did in fact very recently do a comparison between the Zeiss 2.5-10X50 and the Kahles 2.5-10X50 and I can tell you that, at least to my eyes, I couldn't discern any meaningful difference between the two in terms of low light performance.  Both will take you well past any legal shooting hours and into near darkness.  If I had to give one the edge over the other, I would have to go with the Zeiss, only because it has a little more forgiving eye relief. 
 
I think the Zeiss has slightly better contrast, but both have equal resolution as best I can tell.  Colors seem ever so slightly more vibrant through the Zeiss.  The Kahles has more of a tunnel effect at lower magnification setting than Zeiss.
 
The Zeiss Diavari is hard to beat optically, when you look at the whole package.  It does most everything well.  However, the Kahles CL is much less expensive, and not too far behind the Zeiss optically, so I think it's the better value.
 
I would choose based on which scope gives you the best combination of reticle design, size, weight, eye relief, field of view, etc. and then balance the pros and cons against price.
 
Either way, you'd be getting a first class scope!


Edited by RifleDude - February/18/2008 at 10:59
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2008 at 15:48
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Thanks, RifleDude.  I have a Diavari V/MV 2.5-10x50 w/ #8 reticle on a bolt gun already.  Was looking for a new scope for a BAR 30-06.  I keep hearing all the buzz @ the new CL, and the $600 difference is attractive.  What @ the 4a reticle on the CL?  Are the post heavy enough to see the reticle well during those last moments of light? Are the post heavier on the 4a than the Plex?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2008 at 15:54
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( Hey, jbb9166, remember that RifleDude is from Texas and ya cain't b'leeve nuthin' he says cuz he's full of brown beans and Lone Star....................) Stare     which means ya wanna stay UPWIND, too................................................
 
signed       PYRO
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2008 at 15:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2008 at 16:11
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Rifledude's comment on the 30mm tube is quite important to me.

I have had the pleasure of using several of the Diavari's and they are excellent. The same goes for the 30mm Kahles C models, of which I have three.
With those bigger Hubbel sized objectives I prefer the bigger tube. It gives the scope a more balanced look. It is also much stronger, read stiffer. I'm not even a fan of those big scopes, but some members around here have them on guns as small as Reminton M7's. They look great. I have a 1" Leupy with a 50mm lens on a Ruger M77 and it looks gross. Hey, that's just meWhacko
You can get into a 30mm Kahles off the samplelist and still save some big money if you are interested.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2008 at 17:43
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On a serious note, I think the larger objectives look a little more sedate with a 30mm tube--and the angle of the objective lens is less severe, kind of....                --Ed
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2008 at 18:03
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BTW, I have both 4A and 7A reticles. On the power range you are looking at, I think the 7A is better for long range accuracy.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2008 at 20:43
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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

BTW, I have both 4A and 7A reticles. On the power range you are looking at, I think the 7A is better for long range accuracy.
 
+1
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2008 at 21:25
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Originally posted by jbb9166 jbb9166 wrote:

.....  Was looking for a new scope for a BAR 30-06.  I keep hearing all the buzz @ the new CL, and the $600 difference is attractive.   Are the post heavy enough to see the reticle well during those last moments of light? Are the post heavier on the 4a than the Plex?
 
I just got the CL to put on my BAR 30-06........... I just love that gun!  I would recommend you find a CL and look at the reticle yourself.  I got the plex and I think its a little on the slim side.  I've never seen the Zeiss, so can't comment on it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2008 at 22:20
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Originally posted by jbb9166 jbb9166 wrote:

Thanks, RifleDude.  I have a Diavari V/MV 2.5-10x50 w/ #8 reticle on a bolt gun already.  Was looking for a new scope for a BAR 30-06.  I keep hearing all the buzz @ the new CL, and the $600 difference is attractive.  What @ the 4a reticle on the CL?  Are the post heavy enough to see the reticle well during those last moments of light? Are the post heavier on the 4a than the Plex?
 
I too have the #8 reticle in the Diavari, except in an illuminated version.  It's hard to beat that reticle for low light; it's about as bold as reticles get.
 
Yes, the posts on the 4A are quite a bit heavier than the thick posts on the plex.  The Kahles plex is rather thin, so their 4A is a much better low light reticle than their rendition of the plex.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2008 at 23:00
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Originally posted by Tip69 Tip69 wrote:

Originally posted by jbb9166 jbb9166 wrote:

.....  Was looking for a new scope for a BAR 30-06.  I keep hearing all the buzz @ the new CL, and the $600 difference is attractive.   Are the post heavy enough to see the reticle well during those last moments of light? Are the post heavier on the 4a than the Plex?
 
I just got the CL to put on my BAR 30-06........... I just love that gun!  I would recommend you find a CL and look at the reticle yourself.  I got the plex and I think its a little on the slim side.  I've never seen the Zeiss, so can't comment on it.


If the plex reticle on a Kahles is like that of a Swarovski, it reminds me of a  Leupold  thin duplex. The 4a and 7a posts should both be heavier. I'm old school being raised on duplexes, I find the 4a slow but that's just me, and would prefer the 7a for low light. For precise shots, I like the plex.


Edited by mike650 - February/18/2008 at 23:04
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by jbb9166 jbb9166 wrote:

Thanks, RifleDude.  I have a Diavari V/MV 2.5-10x50 w/ #8 reticle on a bolt gun already.  Was looking for a new scope for a BAR 30-06.  I keep hearing all the buzz @ the new CL, and the $600 difference is attractive.  What @ the 4a reticle on the CL?  Are the post heavy enough to see the reticle well during those last moments of light? Are the post heavier on the 4a than the Plex?
 
I too have the #8 reticle in the Diavari, except in an illuminated version.  It's hard to beat that reticle for low light; it's about as bold as reticles get.
 
Yes, the posts on the 4A are quite a bit heavier than the thick posts on the plex.  The Kahles plex is rather thin, so their 4A is a much better low light reticle than their rendition of the plex.


The #8 looks like a 7a, nice, is there much difference between the two, maybe the center cross hairs?


Edited by mike650 - February/18/2008 at 23:21
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2008 at 23:38
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Originally posted by mike650 mike650 wrote:


The #8 looks like a 7a, nice, is there much difference between the two, maybe the center cross hairs?
 
I believe the thick posts of the Zeiss #8 are thicker than the Kahles 7A posts.  I have the illuminated #8 on my Diavari, which Zeiss has discontinued.  I haven't seen the 7A in person, so I can't verify, but it appears to be similar to the #8.  There should be a subtension chart on both manufacturers' websites.  Keep in mind that the 7A is available in the C series Kahles, but not the CL, where you have a choice between the 4A or plex, according to their latest literature and website information. 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/19/2008 at 00:23
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Thanks Ted!!

I know the Swarovski 7a but not the Kahles 7a and Zeiss #8, funny how that works.

Lucky you to get  a illuminated #8 for your Diavari, that would have been my choice. Thunbs%20Up
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/19/2008 at 06:15
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Note that the 4A and 7A reticles in the Kahles C series are FFP. The thickness gets heavier as the magnification is turned up.

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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Note that the 4A and 7A reticles in the Kahles C series are FFP. The thickness gets heavier as the magnification is turned up.



Knowing that both the reticle on FFP scopes and the game both get larger as the magnification is increased, does it present a problem with longer shots where the center of the cross hairs may cover too much of the target? My scopes are all SFP so I'm FFP challenged. Big%20Smile
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/19/2008 at 16:58
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Originally posted by mike650 mike650 wrote:

Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Note that the 4A and 7A reticles in the Kahles C series are FFP. The thickness gets heavier as the magnification is turned up.



Knowing that both the reticle on FFP scopes and the game both get larger as the magnification is increased, does it present a problem with longer shots where the center of the cross hairs may cover too much of the target? My scopes are all SFP so I'm FFP challenged. Big%20Smile
 
Keep in mind that the reticle and the target image enlarge at the same rate as magnification is increased on a FFP scope, so the reticle will always subtend the same amount of the target regardless of magnification.  Still, a thin SFP reticle will usually cover up less of the target than a FFP reticle because the reticle stays the same size and therefore subtends increasingly less of the target as magnification is increased.  How much of an issue this really is depends on the thickness of the crosshairs in the particular FFP reticle chosen.  You can still get extreme precision shooting capability with a FFP reticle, again depending on the design of the reticle.
 
I generally prefer the low light visibility benefits of FFP reticles for big game hunting and a super thin SFP reticle for target and long range varmint shooting.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/19/2008 at 17:50
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Welcome to the OT. I have 2 Kahles CLs with 4a reticles. They are fairly heavy and are perfect for lowlight hunting. I havent compared them against the Diavari but I compared them against my brothers Swarovski PH. To my eyes the Kahles are just as clear. Good luck.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/19/2008 at 20:14
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Originally posted by jbb9166 jbb9166 wrote:

Looking at the 3-10x50 CL and the 2.5-10x50 VM/V.  Interested to hear from someone who has actually looked through both these scopes in low light...how does the CL compare to the VM/V?  I hunt in the south where deer don't usually move until just before dark.  Also, are the post on the 4a reticle of the CL considered "heavy?"  Again, I prefer a heavier reticle for low light.  Thanks. 
 
These are the 2 most expensive scopes I own. I have a VM/V 3-12x56 & a KahleCL 3-12x56. The Zeiss is clearer right there at the LAST possible shooting times. Don't get me wrong the Kahles is no slouch its one hell of a scope but the Zeiss has the slight edge on brightness in low light.
 
I also have a 2.5x10VM/V that I use for low light hunting & its been fabulous.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/20/2008 at 13:21
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Speaking of reticle thickness......(I don't mean to get everything 'off track' here......) does anybody know how Thick the reticles of the IOR scopes are? Supertool?? Are you here?!
 
How do they compare with other scopes as far as Thickness and visibility in low light?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/20/2008 at 19:40
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I went with another Diavari V/MV 2.5-10x50.  For low light, the magnifying reticle of the FFP was as inportant as the quality of the glass.  I prefer a heavy post, and without seeing the 4a (SFP) in the CL firsthand, it wasn't worth the gamble.  I'm telling you,  the deer where we hunt do not move until right at dark. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/21/2008 at 10:17
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how 'bout some pics!
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