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Is stopping power a myth?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2010 at 17:10
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  I found the recent discussions about caliber choices for deer hunting and barrel twist rates very interesting.  Clearly, lots of different calibers are capable of taking deer.  But as all of us know, there is more to the story.  Lets stay with hunting deer at ranges of 200 yards, or less.

 

For your choice of caliber, if bullet placement is the most important factor in putting a deer down quickly, what are other important factors and how do you rank them?

 

Examples (some may be interrelated):  bullet construction, penetration depth, size of the permanent wound cavity, size of the temporary wound cavity, core fragmentation, cutting surfaces on monolithic bullets when deformed, etc. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2010 at 17:31
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for me its like this
1. placement
2. construction
3.weight

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2010 at 18:08
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Shot placement &  penetration.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2010 at 19:58
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For me, 

1.  Shot placement, preferably a high shoulder shot
2.  A big hole is better than a small hole (Permanent wound channel of 0.6 inches, or more)
3.  Two holes are better than one hole (Penetration of at least 13 or 14 inches in wet paper).
4.  Heavy for caliber bullets whose core fragments (partitions)
5.  A minimum velocity of 2000 fps at 200 yds.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2010 at 20:35
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Originally posted by Gunshow75 Gunshow75 wrote:

For me, 

1.  Shot placement, preferably a high shoulder shot
2.  A big hole is better than a small hole (Permanent wound channel of 0.6 inches, or more)
3.  Two holes are better than one hole (Penetration of at least 13 or 14 inches in wet paper).
4.  Heavy for caliber bullets whose core fragments (partitions)
5.  A minimum velocity of 2000 fps at 200 yds.
 

tom, some food for thoughts, heavy for caliber isnt always the best, think back to the 70's before i was even born. a lot of guys used the 200-220gr .308 diameter bullets in the 30-06's and they ended up losing a lot of animals, there is a line in the sand where to heavy and not enough speed equal failure. imo in the .308 class unless  your using a magnum of some kind the 180gr bullet is plenty, if your using a magnum 200-225 is acceptable out to reasonable distances.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2010 at 20:52
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  -shot placement
 
   -construction (NO bullet that causes excessive damage)
 
    -penetration (enter and exit)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2010 at 21:29
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Shot placement above all else, I heard of guy killing a deer with pellet gun. everything else kind falls into place after that i guess. lol hell never really gave it much thought untill now.Whacko
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2010 at 03:34
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Hit them in the right place with right bullet, and they will go down.  You just have to find out what works for you in your rifle.
 
I have had great luck (and consistent DRT kills) with the Speer Hot Cor 165 grain bullet out of the .30-06.  It works, so I don't worry about why.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2010 at 04:43
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

Originally posted by Gunshow75 Gunshow75 wrote:

For me, 

1.  Shot placement, preferably a high shoulder shot
2.  A big hole is better than a small hole (Permanent wound channel of 0.6 inches, or more)
3.  Two holes are better than one hole (Penetration of at least 13 or 14 inches in wet paper).
4.  Heavy for caliber bullets whose core fragments (partitions)
5.  A minimum velocity of 2000 fps at 200 yds.
 

tom, some food for thoughts, heavy for caliber isnt always the best, think back to the 70's before i was even born. a lot of guys used the 200-220gr .308 diameter bullets in the 30-06's and they ended up losing a lot of animals, there is a line in the sand where to heavy and not enough speed equal failure. imo in the .308 class unless  your using a magnum of some kind the 180gr bullet is plenty, if your using a magnum 200-225 is acceptable out to reasonable distances.
 
I completely agree with you.  I haven't used them on deer, but I tried some Federal 200 gr 30-06 bullets in wet paper and they did not expand well at all.  That is the reason I qualified my "Heavy for caliber" with "a core that fragments," and added the minimum velocity factor.   
 
I am sure there will be lots who disagree with me, but IMO, for this application, 180 gr is on the heavy-for-caliber side for a .308 or 30-06.  They seem to be best with the 165 to 168 gr bullets.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2010 at 09:01
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Originally posted by Gunshow75 Gunshow75 wrote:

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

Originally posted by Gunshow75 Gunshow75 wrote:

For me, 

1.  Shot placement, preferably a high shoulder shot
2.  A big hole is better than a small hole (Permanent wound channel of 0.6 inches, or more)
3.  Two holes are better than one hole (Penetration of at least 13 or 14 inches in wet paper).
4.  Heavy for caliber bullets whose core fragments (partitions)
5.  A minimum velocity of 2000 fps at 200 yds.
 

tom, some food for thoughts, heavy for caliber isnt always the best, think back to the 70's before i was even born. a lot of guys used the 200-220gr .308 diameter bullets in the 30-06's and they ended up losing a lot of animals, there is a line in the sand where to heavy and not enough speed equal failure. imo in the .308 class unless  your using a magnum of some kind the 180gr bullet is plenty, if your using a magnum 200-225 is acceptable out to reasonable distances.
 
I completely agree with you.  I haven't used them on deer, but I tried some Federal 200 gr 30-06 bullets in wet paper and they did not expand well at all.  That is the reason I qualified my "Heavy for caliber" with "a core that fragments," and added the minimum velocity factor.   
 
I am sure there will be lots who disagree with me, but IMO, for this application, 180 gr is on the heavy-for-caliber side for a .308 or 30-06.  They seem to be best with the 165 to 168 gr bullets.

thats it tom, the 30-06 just cant push those heavier bullets fast enough to let them work properly. when i had a 30-06 i shot 150gr bullets out of it and they were plenty good to take down elk.
with the 3 .300's ive now owned ive started all of them at 180gr and feel fine working up to 200gr or more.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2010 at 12:51
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Placement and penetration with the least amount of meat damage. It does me no good to lose an entire shoulder on the exit side of a food source. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2010 at 13:03
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30-06, 200-220gr, moving too slow?????????  NO.

My .458 Lott that I hunt with, I sometimes use 350gr at 1700fps, 440 grain at 1500fps... deer roll over and just die, they don't even move.  I've never had a deer go anywhere with a 30-06 220gr, but it produces too much bloodshot meat.  Nasty wound cavity.  The .458 is a much cleaner kill...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2010 at 14:11
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Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

30-06, 200-220gr, moving too slow?????????  NO.

My .458 Lott that I hunt with, I sometimes use 350gr at 1700fps, 440 grain at 1500fps... deer roll over and just die, they don't even move.  I've never had a deer go anywhere with a 30-06 220gr, but it produces too much bloodshot meat.  Nasty wound cavity.  The .458 is a much cleaner kill...

apples and oranges there. we will have to agree to disagree on the 06
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2010 at 14:15
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

30-06, 200-220gr, moving too slow?????????  NO.

My .458 Lott that I hunt with, I sometimes use 350gr at 1700fps, 440 grain at 1500fps... deer roll over and just die, they don't even move.  I've never had a deer go anywhere with a 30-06 220gr, but it produces too much bloodshot meat.  Nasty wound cavity.  The .458 is a much cleaner kill...

apples and oranges there. we will have to agree to disagree on the 06
OK, we do...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/07/2010 at 14:43
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i just feel you get a lot better performance out of a lot less weight in the 30-06.

the 150gr gives you almost identical performance energy wise as the 220gr does, but with more speed and less drop. the 165's and 180's do even better.

3006HS
30-06 Spring. (7.62x63mm)
220 / 14.26
3006A
30-06 Spring. (7.62x63mm)
150 / 9.72

Ballistics Comparisons:
  Velocity in Feet per Second (To nearest 10 FPS)
Load No
Caliber
Muzzle
100 Y
200 Y
300 Y
400 Y
500 Y
3006HS
30-06 Spring. (7.62x63mm)
2400
2120
1859
1623
1412
1238
3006A
30-06 Spring. (7.62x63mm)
2910
2616
2340
2081
1839
1619

  Energy in Foot Pounds (To nearest 5 Foot Pounds)
Load No
Caliber
Muzzle
100 Y
200 Y
300 Y
400 Y
500 Y
3006HS
30-06 Spring. (7.62x63mm)
2813
2196
1688
1286
974
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2010 at 01:40
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So, exactly what point are you trying to prove...
Federal has no data I will take as valid, based upon experience with Federal products in the field.  I will not use anything Federal produces...
However, the points of physics are always true MassxAcceleration is TRUE, and a lighter bullet pushed at higher acceleration can produce more energy than a heavier bullet at lower acceleration... if you search back through threads, you will see that I have stated that on many occassions when the heavier bullets were being touted as so far superior to the lighter bullets.  However, I have used 220gr 30-06 for a very long time... until I found the .458 Lott, 30-06 was my VERY FAVORITE caliber for all around, just about anything... over time, it may still be.  I've used 55gr accelerator, 110gr, 120gr, 147gr, 150, 154gr, 160-168gr, 175gr, 180gr, 190gr and 220gr in 30-06 and never had one of them fail to kill a deer.  I have used Federal 165gr power shok which fragmented on impact and failed to kill two hogs... the only game I have ever lost and not recovered, found after they died in the woods.  It still haunts me, though Federal doesn't seem to mind much... they never responded to any of my queries on the ammo. 
Some commercial ammo, some hand loaded, some CNC built bullets.  I hunted almost exclusively with 220gr Winchester Super-X for about 15 years and NEVER once failed to drop the animal.  I have seen some heavy bloodshot meat with 150, 180, 220gr bullets... seems to be more with the 150gr Nosler ballistic tips... big internal damage, but a lot of damage overall, more meat loss with those than anything I have hunted with. 
Work calls, but my experience may be different than yours...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2010 at 11:16
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here is what a friend of mine sent me, he has been hunting longer than ive been alive and he can attest first hand to what im talking about.

I agree with you 100% from personal observation. And from personal observation you can add the .308 to that list. 200-220 grain bullets were made for DEEP penetration on big game like moose, grizzly, elk, ect. They were not made for use on deer, period. The other myth is their great ability to blow through brush and not deflect, another big crock of BS. Think of a bowling ball. A ball that is thrown slowly down the lane deflects more off the pins than a ball that is thrown fast and hard. I do not own (well, I do own one '06 that is waiting to have the barrel replaced with that Brux 25 cal 1-9 twist) a 30-06 or 308 because when I started deer hunting some 50 plus years ago, the other members of Dad's hunting party, other than him and I, had those two calibers with the heavy round nosed bullets. To make a long story short, I spent my first years of deer hunting tracking wounded deer shot with those two calibers and heavy bullets more than I did hunting because I had a knack for doing so and finding them. It seemed as though the heavy bullets penciled through, never opening up, and the deer went a long ways before dying. In most of the deer, even though they were cup and core bullets, had an exit hole the same size as the entry hole. Yes, they killed deer, but due to individuals not being able to track an animal more than 20 yards, many deer were lost. I made a vow to myself to NEVER, NEVER hunt with those two calibers, much less the heavy bullets, and to this day that is the case.

winchester to my knowledge doesnt off anything in the 30-06 heavier than 180gr and the only two companies i could find that do are federal and remington, so i used the federal info.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2010 at 12:40
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Hunter, I've still got a box of Winchester Super-X 220 grain.  I'll send you a picture when I get home.  As for what your friend thinks of 220 grain bullets for hunting deer, that's his business, but it does not impact my hunting practices in the least.  I have hunted with 220 grain Winchester Super-X for quite some time.  I don't now because I'm using a .458 Lott...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2010 at 22:21
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1.  Placement
2.  Placement
3.  Placement

Then construction and penetration.  I have yet to see and animal hit right not go down.  And it doesn't matter what the bullet design was.  The old bullets worked, and the new bullets work.  The only one I have not been a fan of was the SSTs.  Too much damage when a bone was hit.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2010 at 22:47
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I'm in the school of speed and hydrostatic shock myself if we are talking about deer/elk sized game. No offense to Kickboxer, but I've never heard of anyone prior to him using a 458 Lott on deer. This whole idea of "knock down power" relates more to thick skinned dangerous game using solid projectiles to stop charging game. I believe there is a gentlemen named Taylor (IIRC) who came up with the concept.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2010 at 23:18
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I have used military ball rounds for a 3006 and they punch right through. Nearly no expansion on the exit. What they do do is to basically turn organs into mush. A well hit deer may go 50+ yards tops. The problem is in what's in that 50+ yards that can make recovery difficult at best. Still I have also shot deer with ballistic tips, that have run 100+ yards, and that with a huge gaping hole in the exit shoulder.  Bottom line for me is placement. if the area is rough and presents recovery or tracking challenges, a neck/backbone shot, or head shot is now the shot I will take, or I will just pass.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/09/2010 at 10:13
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My experience comes down to :
Shot placement as a first.
Secondly caliber. A  .3 caliber is better then a .270 or a 6mm.
Bullet with a lead core that causes bleeding. If you cannot find blood, you ain't gonna find that buck.
So for me a .308 caliber in 180gr or more, such as a Sierra Gameking, puts the biltong in the freezer. A 30-06 or 300Win Mag or 300 H&H does just fine for most hunting.
For smaller mid size game all of the above becomes less important.
I have shot mid size and bigger game with the so called premium bullets. Shot placement is critical, otherwise the bullet whistles through, with no bloodspoor to follow.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/09/2010 at 10:19
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Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:

I have shot mid size and bigger game with the so called premium bullets. Shot placement is critical, otherwise the bullet whistles through, with no bloodspoor to follow.


Agreed completely

So called premium bullets to me are just a waste of money.  For years my dad and I just hunted with the cheap remington corelockt bullets.  We never lost a single deer or elk that we mad a good shot with.  They always make huge wound cavities and a lot of blood. 

I have tried a lot of the so called better bullets of today and have not seen any miracle happen because I have used them.  Now I just use regular old partition type bullets and I kill everything I make a good hit with.

99% of the game is shot placement IMO. 


Edited by supertool73 - August/09/2010 at 10:19
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/09/2010 at 14:27
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I would also like to know the size sample of deer that Kickboxer has taken that have "never moved after shot". I've seen bucks shot with magnum pumkin ball slugs from a 12 ga that have ran (a short distance) like they weren't hit at all. I'm affraid I'll have to call BS.
 
ps. I'm not saying that KB is a BS artist only that perhaps he hasn't shot enough deer to make a definitive statement. Now, if he has taken 50+ deer and none of them ever took another life breathing step I'll have to retarct my thoughts on the subject.


Edited by Roy Finn - August/09/2010 at 14:38
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/09/2010 at 14:35
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The catalog energy figures for the common high-brass ("maximum") 12 gauge slug load are an impressive 2361 ft. lbs. at the muzzle, but only 926 ft. lbs. at 100 yards. This is due to the very poor BC of the slug. Sighted to hit dead on at 50 yards, that slug is 4.8" low at 100 yards. The more powerful 12 gauge slugs are only marginally better, and kick noticeably harder. No matter what, rifled slugs remain a short range proposition.
 
The Lott, on the other hand, delivers 2,300 ft/s (700 m/s) velocities from 24-inch (610 mm)-barreled rifles, which in turn produces 6,020 ft·lbf (8,160 J) of muzzle energy
 
Both exerts..... I didn't know write them  But clearly there is a lot more energy in teh Lott than any Pumkin size slug.
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