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IOR or Leupold?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2008 at 14:30
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OK so I'm still in the process of figuring out my future scope. I was bent on a IOR 3-18, but then i got talking to people, and they all recommended Leupold. If I'd go that way then the equivelant would be the 6.5 - 20 illuminated LR/T.Their argument was that the Leupold doesnt change zero due to weather, (changing from 20 to minus 20 degrees) cause of some testing that was conducted not too long ago.
 
Now I know that the IORs are pretty durable and their customer service sucks and optics are great, but what can you tell me about the Leupold to persuade or dissuade me from going with it.
 
Any help is appreciated
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2008 at 15:02
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The glass in the IOR is significantly better than the Leupold.  As far as the zero changing in cold weather, I would not attribute that to the scope as much but to weather and how any round will perform in different temps.  A shooter should always rezero their rifle for different temps as the zero will change some.  IORs are rated from -40 to 140 so that shouldn't be an issue.  I can't say that I have ever shot a -20 though, I have shot my IORs into the teens though and they worked fine.   So I can't say for sure how it will perform at those temps.
As far as the service sucking, I am quite sure that was a thing of the past.  The guys in Colorado and several of the big IOR venders will take care of you.  I have 3 of them and have put thousands or rounds down range and took them through some rough times and they just keep on a truckin.  Many shooters will agree that Leupold are good scopes, but they are over rated and way over priced for what you get.  They just don't compare to a good Euro optic.  But in the end it comes down to what you are comfortable with and what you want.  If you are set on the Leupold, it will probably serve you well and if you have a warranty issue it will not have to be shipped to Europe to get fixed.  If you want better glass and better images I would go with the IOR for the price range IMO they are tough to beat.  

Edited by supertool73 - January/25/2008 at 15:04
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2008 at 16:08
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Who did the test where the IOR changes zero do to temp? And where can I see a copy of it?   Were the rounds clocked? What sort of stock was used? Me, you can see throught the IOR.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/25/2008 at 20:44
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I would like to see that test as well.

Leupold has better customer service and Leupolds are, on average, a bit lighter.  In every other way I can think of, IOR is a better scope.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2008 at 06:43
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Now I dont want to start a war here, I didnt say that IOR changes zero, I just said that there was some test conducted not too long ago with most major scope brands included, and leupold came on top with it. I dont have a copy of it or anything, I was just told word of mouth. Its a freind of a freind thing. They told me as much as I told you.
 
Anyhow, anybody else have anything to say about the leupold?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2008 at 10:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2008 at 15:29
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Once you lay down $500 or more for a scope it's probably going to be a good item. Money is better spent on range time and physical conditioning than on the minute differences in performance between brand a, b or c. For a practical hunting scope under a wide range of conditions, I'm switching over to Trijicons as they are durable, reasonably priced, precise enough for any reasonable big game conditions and you can still see the glowing triangle in a closet with the door closed at midnight. A real breakthrough that will only be topped when we have a long range laser sight to mount on our rifles.

Dolphin, who has forgotten more about optics than I hope to ever know put it very well:"  That is the thing about a Trijicon.  The eye relief is so forgiving.  A slight movement, left, right, up, or down, does not result in a white out or black out.  I wish you guys would give them a chance.  I know they have a limited line up, but they are American made, but do use Japanese made lenses.  Overall, better made here, using American labor, than in communist China.  I believe you guys when you say the Euros are the best, but in reality, you are paying out the nose, because of the weak dollar compared to the Euro.  To me, I refuse to do that, knowing the prices are inflated by 30 to 40 percent for that reason."
He says it all.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2008 at 16:22
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He wants a precision scope though, and a trijicon is not going to cut it in that arena.  I bet they are a fantastic hunting scope as are many others that are in the $500 to $700 range.  But a precision target scope generally will cost more because they are designed for, well, precision.  They are most likely going to be built with tighter tolerances, everything has to be perfect.  They have precise repeatable adjustments, fancy reticles, larger tubes, more adjustment travel, target turrets, higher magnification powers all those things and more come into play which is what makes them start to cost more. 
I think it is kind of like a Kimber 1911 vs. a Wilson Combat.  For $1000 my Kimber shoots great and has very few malfuctions and does pretty much all I want it to do, but my buddies Wilson shoots better, everything works smoother, and it has no malfunctions. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2008 at 08:13
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Originally posted by Tikka Tikka wrote:

Now I dont want to start a war here, I didnt say that IOR changes zero, I just said that there was some test conducted not too long ago with most major scope brands included, and leupold came on top with it. I dont have a copy of it or anything, I was just told word of mouth. Its a freind of a freind thing. They told me as much as I told you.
 
Anyhow, anybody else have anything to say about the leupold?
 
The test was done by Leupold. Devil
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2008 at 08:33
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Seriously - I am a Leupold guy and have had great luck with my Leupolds. I did order in a 6x42 IOR tactical a while back and was just blown away at the quality of the glass for that price as the glass was every bit as good as my Leupold Mark 4  10x M3 scope that cost about three times as much.  I will say this though - pick your scope according to the way you intend to use it. Exposed knobs are great on the rifle range but can be unintentionally adjusted by bumping them on brush etc covered knobs are protected from that but harder to get to quickly to make correctons.  Power range should be selected according to how the scope is used also. If you have applications under 100 yds you need something on the low end around 3x to 4x at the most.  If you have more applications for the scope at distance you really are better off with something that is at least 14 to 16 power on the high end.  I certainly would not be shy of buying the IOR as it is very unlikely that you will have any service issues anyway.  One other factor is that the availability of the IOR is not likely to be as high as the availability of the Leupold - better call and ask if it's available.
 
As for SAMSPADE - great scope - wrong application - wrong forum.


Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - January/27/2008 at 08:36
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2008 at 19:33
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Sorry to disagree but, he did not use the word "precision" anywhere, and since y'all "bet" Trijicons are good indicates to me you own none. You might want to read the recent review of the 2.5-10 in G&A where the guy was popping  p-dogs at extended ranges, that is precision shooting. The application is tactical. I'd say superior lowlight performance, a bold reticule and bulletproof build quality are important. All I have read says almost all so called tactical shooting is done at less than 100 yards and frequently in poorly lit conditions. Hard to convince me that a 2.5-10x56 Trijicon would not be fine for wacking a homeboy across a parking lot IF ANYONE EVER TRIED IT! The Marines & Army in Iraq appear to have enough respect for its little brother that they are buying them out of their pockets for their rifles on a PFC's pay. That's real world as very few non military "tactical riflemen" ever get shot at.
Suggest y'all go back and read Dolphin's posts on these scopes as he is actually a real optics expert who has tried lots more scopes in real world conditions than most of us will ever hold up in the gunshop.
As for IOR vs Leupold, the last time you saw an IOR on a US Sniper rifle was???
Winchester>Weaver>Lyman>Kollmorgan>Unertl>Redfield>Leatherwood>Leupold>Schmidt & Bender is the progression as I recall it. (with plenty of overlaps)
As Packard used to say: "Ask the man who owns one." (yes I know they don't still make Packards)(or Duesenbergs) so what ?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2008 at 20:11
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Winchester>Weaver>Lyman>Kollmorgan>Unertl>Redfield>Leatherwood
Jesus no wonder were losing.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2008 at 20:47
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 You are comparing apples to oranges here. He asked about a IOR 3-18x42 and a Leupold 6.5-20x-50 LR/t.  Both of those are precision rifle scopes, so he was actually asking about precision rifle scopes.  I don't think he would want a 20x scope for home defense.

Comparing an ACOG to a Trijicon hunting scope is also apples to oranges.  The ACOG was designed for the designated marksman of the unit so he would be able to engage enemies at longer ranges and still be able to use it as a CQB weapon while not having to make elevation adjustments because of the built in BDC reticle.  But in no way is it a precision scope.  They are a fixed lower power scope so they don't have to deal with any kind of adjustments whether the shot is 10 yards or 400 yards.  ANd they are perfect for that application, but they won't work for a long range precision scope.  Whereas the hunting scopes are made to zero at a specific range and you are not going to make constant windage and elevation adjustments with that either.  You hold over for longer shots and may hold left or right for windage adjustments.  But most shooter just shoot for the zero spot and never worry about bullet drop because most of the time the distance is less than 300 yards.  So all the fancy stuff on a precision scope is not needed.

I have used ACOGs and they are sweet scopes, no argument there.  And I am sure that the trijicon hunting scope is great as well for that application.  But it lacks the reticle and target turrets which you have to have for precision rifle work.  Because it lacks those two things it will not work as a precision rifle scope.  Sure you can make good hits with it and I know trijicon has great glass but its intended application is not for precision rifle.

Also these scopes are not for tactical CQB shooting.  They are long range precision rifle scopes.  Why would you ever need to 18 to 20 power scope for 100 yards?  Really no magnification is even needed for 100 yards or less.  Precision shooting may take place anywhere from 50 to say 1500 yards or farther depending on the rifle.   I am sure the trijicon has the glass, but it does not have the necessary internal adjustment range, the needed reticle to range targets at unknown distances, or the target turrets so you can make changes for distances and wind conditions and be able to turn them right back to your rifles zero after you make the shot.  A hunting type scope is not capable of doing that. 
I have a Meopta hunting scope that I got on sale for $350 and I personally think the glass looks as good as my two IOR precision scopes.  But I could never use it for the kind of long range shooting I do.  I shoot my .308 out to 1000 yards all the time, my .300 much farther than that and the Meopta is just not capable of doing what I need it to do for those types of shots. 

I am not saying a shooter could not make hits with a hunting scope at longer ranges.  But be able to do it in the first shot and do it consistently, it is just not going to happen.  You mentioned a lot about the military.  I don't see Marine snipers using hunting scopes on their rifles, they are using very nice precision rifle scopes and are designed for that type of shooting.  They have to be able to make first round hits and it is just not going to happen with a hunting scope, there are just to many environmental variable that come into play that you can not adjust for properly with a hunting scope. 

If the guy was asking about a hunting scope then by all means what you are saying would make sense.  But you are trying to sell someone a scope that is just flat out wrong.  Each type of scope has its place and its application and some can be used for multiple applications.  But a hunting scope is the simplest of them all and that is what its intended use is.


Edited by supertool73 - January/27/2008 at 23:34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2008 at 20:55
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Originally posted by samspade samspade wrote:

Sorry to disagree but, he did not use the word "precision" anywhere, and since y'all "bet" Trijicons are good indicates to me you own none. You might want to read the recent review of the 2.5-10 in G&A where the guy was popping  p-dogs at extended ranges, that is precision shooting. The application is tactical. I'd say superior lowlight performance, a bold reticule and bulletproof build quality are important. All I have read says almost all so called tactical shooting is done at less than 100 yards and frequently in poorly lit conditions. Hard to convince me that a 2.5-10x56 Trijicon would not be fine for wacking a homeboy across a parking lot IF ANYONE EVER TRIED IT! The Marines & Army in Iraq appear to have enough respect for its little brother that they are buying them out of their pockets for their rifles on a PFC's pay. That's real world as very few non military "tactical riflemen" ever get shot at.
Suggest y'all go back and read Dolphin's posts on these scopes as he is actually a real optics expert who has tried lots more scopes in real world conditions than most of us will ever hold up in the gunshop.
As for IOR vs Leupold, the last time you saw an IOR on a US Sniper rifle was???
Winchester>Weaver>Lyman>Kollmorgan>Unertl>Redfield>Leatherwood>Leupold>Schmidt & Bender is the progression as I recall it. (with plenty of overlaps)
As Packard used to say: "Ask the man who owns one." (yes I know they don't still make Packards)(or Duesenbergs) so what ?
 

 I don't know how many are on U.S Sniper rifles, but it's my understanding that there are quite a few IORs in Iraq in Designated Marksman roles, (purchased out of pocket on PFC pay). At any rate I think they probably outnumber Trijicon scopes handily, regardless of the relative attributes of one over the other. ( Not counting ACOGs of course.)

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2008 at 04:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2008 at 09:01
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Originally posted by samspade samspade wrote:

Sorry to disagree but, he did not use the word "precision" anywhere, and since y'all "bet" Trijicons are good indicates to me you own none. You might want to read the recent review of the 2.5-10 in G&A where the guy was popping  p-dogs at extended ranges, that is precision shooting. The application is tactical. I'd say superior lowlight performance, a bold reticule and bulletproof build quality are important. All I have read says almost all so called tactical shooting is done at less than 100 yards and frequently in poorly lit conditions. Hard to convince me that a 2.5-10x56 Trijicon would not be fine for wacking a homeboy across a parking lot IF ANYONE EVER TRIED IT! The Marines & Army in Iraq appear to have enough respect for its little brother that they are buying them out of their pockets for their rifles on a PFC's pay. That's real world as very few non military "tactical riflemen" ever get shot at.
Suggest y'all go back and read Dolphin's posts on these scopes as he is actually a real optics expert who has tried lots more scopes in real world conditions than most of us will ever hold up in the gunshop.
As for IOR vs Leupold, the last time you saw an IOR on a US Sniper rifle was???
Winchester>Weaver>Lyman>Kollmorgan>Unertl>Redfield>Leatherwood>Leupold>Schmidt & Bender is the progression as I recall it. (with plenty of overlaps)
As Packard used to say: "Ask the man who owns one." (yes I know they don't still make Packards)(or Duesenbergs) so what ?
 
 
So you think there's no trijicon experience here? WRONG. There are several here that own them. FOR HUNTING!!! Good little scopes, Acogs are for tactical applications. For long distance and sniping I'll stick with IOR THANKS. Why do you feel the need to start a fire?
As for denegrading others experience based opinions based on what you've read in G&A, You are desperately in need of gaining a few points first. There are a few here that know based on experience in TACTICAL environs. S&B, would be good for sure but how many can afford one.Leupold is certainly durable but lacking in optical quality (comparatively speaking) USO, Nightforce, IOR, Nikon, there are a few that are very good, the most affordable QUALITY TACTICAL SCOPES are made by IOR, Nikon, Bushnell, Burris XTR, Super Sniper, Millett TRS, etc. Yes any scope of decent build and optical quality can be used in a pinch, NOTICE I SAID " IN A PINCH" as was proved in WW II, and Korea, however, it was also noticed that the need for TRULY tactical scopes and rifles was great.
You go ahead and use what you want, the way that you want, and leave others to do the same.
 
Stop taking what respected members of this forum say, out of context.
 
What does Packard have to do with this thread any ways.
 
The last time I was shooting at PD's they weren't shooting back, maybe that's changed in the last couple of years, but I doubt it, they are lacking in the field of technology, and I doubt that they could handle the recoil of anything that would be of any threat to someone of say a human size. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2008 at 09:31
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Originally posted by samspade samspade wrote:


As for IOR vs Leupold, the last time you saw an IOR on a US Sniper rifle was???


Oh, and here is your IOR on a US sniper rifle.  Bought and paid for by the shooter himself.

http://www.swfa.com/viewcustomer.aspx?entry=615

PS.
And yes I did notice that his spotter has an ACOG.


Edited by supertool73 - January/28/2008 at 09:33
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2008 at 09:35
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Here is another IOR scope being used in Iraq
http://www.swfa.com/viewcustomer.aspx?entry=479
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2008 at 09:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2008 at 09:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2008 at 16:51
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I'm no 8541, but isn't the spotters job to direct fire and give cover support?  Looks to me that the ACOG would be the right application for that.  DITTO Cyborg & Tahqua!!!  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2008 at 17:59
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Originally posted by cyborg cyborg wrote:

The last time I was shooting at PD's they weren't shooting back, maybe that's changed in the last couple of years, but I doubt it, they are lacking in the field of technology, and I doubt that they could handle the recoil of anything that would be of any threat to someone of say a human size. 
 
No, but the scurrying little b@stards have REALLY sharp teeth, carry Monkey Pox, and one needs to be prepared in the event they organize and mount an offensive!Wink
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Well, now that this thread has been put into the hurt locker, can we please turn this abortion around and stay on topic.
 
* that doesnt mean im ripping into anyone, as i did enjoy this little debate and found good reiteration of the basics, just please dont turn this forum into a jousting match ;)
 
So, anyone else with expirience on Leupolds and IORs?
 
and please dont cut me down, i know theres alot of gun slingers here:D hehe
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2008 at 18:11
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That's great Ted, I hate the little buggers. They are entertaining though (When they explode) LOL
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2008 at 18:42
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