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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/16/2008 at 18:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/16/2008 at 18:15
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That is absolutely amazing! Two rounds to the chest and still kicking. Wonder if he was on some sort of drugs?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/16/2008 at 18:28
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Originally posted by helo18 helo18 wrote:

That is absolutely amazing! Two rounds to the chest and still kicking. Wonder if he was on some sort of drugs?
 
Dont know.
Drugs or not, he's still a tough and lucky SOB.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2008 at 00:03
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After watching the effectiveness of the 40 from a Glock 22C, switched the barrel to shoot .357sig. I feel more confident of the results now. The added velocity greatly increases ballistic shock.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2008 at 05:07
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Just last night I was reading an article on the latest theories around knock-down effect of pistols. The slower velocities are a bit different then high powered rifles. The gist was that in pistols you need blunt trauma as well as the highest possible velocity. In other words a big caliber travelling at reasonable speeds. Cavitational trauma, hydrostatic shock etc is no longer accepted as factors causing incapitation or death. They also show a baddy shot twice in the chest by cops. He still had enough in him to kill two cops and wound another before he died.



Edited by 8shots - April/17/2008 at 05:07
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2008 at 09:33
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Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:

Just last night I was reading an article on the latest theories around knock-down effect of pistols. The slower velocities are a bit different then high powered rifles. The gist was that in pistols you need blunt trauma as well as the highest possible velocity. In other words a big caliber travelling at reasonable speeds. Cavitational trauma, hydrostatic shock etc is no longer accepted as factors causing incapitation or death. They also show a baddy shot twice in the chest by cops. He still had enough in him to kill two cops and wound another before he died.

 I had a couple of questions I'm wondering if the article you read addressed:
1. If you need both a big caliber and high velocity, did the article address why the .357 Magnum has always proven a top dog in man-stopping ability?  It's bullet is essentially the same size as a 9mm.  It just has much greater velocity.
 
2. I always had understood that Hydrostatic shock didn't come into play until after somewhere around 2000 fps - which no handgun reaches.  Am I mistaken here?
 
I don't remember who originally expressed the idea but, I remember often reading/hearing the notion that a handgun is just the tool you use to stay alive long enough to get to your rifle/shotgun.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2008 at 09:58
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Lucznik, you have summed it all correctly. It was recommended that a 9mm upwards caliber be used. The 357 Mag was also mentioned.
Hydrostatic shock is a very controversial subject, even in high velocity rifles. Some vets/medical doctors argue that the body has enough valves ect in the body to prevent a hydrostatic shockwave in live tissue.
But certainly a high velocity is required. I will check the article, cannot recall if a specific velocity was given.
The overall view however was that a handgun must have the ability to make a large, permanent wound. Therefore a small bullet that travels fast and creates a cavitating injury only, permits a person to recover very quickly or even not to show any immediate effect of the injury. This is not true for organs like the heart and liver, which cannot stretch to absorb the temporary injury.
These are only theories, as the human body is a wonderfull thing and no lab can correctly immitate the real result.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2008 at 17:56
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For years we taught our officers tac tac, which is 2 rapid shots with the 2nd being fired while the gun is still in recoil from the first shot. This was to increase the effectiveness of the rounds on the human body (and other reasons I won't go into now). The theory was that 2 rounds delivered almost simotaniousley 2" to 4" apart almost doubles the energy (effect) as opposed to 2 aimed shots that the body could recover from between shots. We were also using 38 and 44spl.s
When we changed to 9mm with 15rd mag.s, we changed techniques. We started teaching to shoot until the threat is stopped. There is no handgun round that will stop a human with one round everytime (if there was physics would dictate that it would knock the shooter down too). Shot placement is more important than caliber. A shot to the brain or spine short circuts the nervous system and has greater effect than a shot to the heart, liver, or major arteries that cause the body to bleed out rapidly. A shot to the lungs, stomach, intestines, etc. and you may not bleed out as fast, and these organs are better able to deal with shock. A shot anywhere else and your probably dealing with the owee effectBrick%20Hit, or how bad did they want to fight in the first place. The pain of the shot may stop the fight, but if they are psyched they won't feel the pain and the only thing that will stop them is when their heart stopsLaser%20Zap.
I'm not suprized that 2 shots to the chest didn't stop this fellow (don't know what the bullits struck). It's not a fault of the bullit unless they failed to penetrate to a vital organ. However the 2 rounds to the chest did stop the suspects anti-social behavior (owee effect).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/17/2008 at 23:00
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I cautiously add my two cents because my shooting men experience is all combat related and none of it was face to face. However I have a great deal of experience in dispatching game animals. I'm the first to confirm that man sized game is not comparable to an adult man. But these facts mentioned in this tread do apply. I truly love the 45 (colt M11) we carried in the 80's in the Coast Guard search & seizure teams. A very respectable round, but for accuracy, range, stopping power and quick dispatch I (if given the choice) will pick the 357 every time. If any man carries 2 180gr 45 rounds, if you can get another round off you better put it in the gourd. The same with the 357. I just don't think anyone has ever had anything left after taking just one 357 of 158gr. or bigger. If anyone knows of such a feet I'd like to hear about it. But as far as game particularly deer I have used the 45 and the 357 and I now hunt with a 357. My first trophy 8 point I brought him down with a 30-06 while he was running in a cut-over about 150yds. out. I was carrying the 45 at the time just cause I liked it. When I walked up on the deer He raised up about the time I saw him and in a state of disbelief he charged me. I drew the 45 while stumbling backwards and fired 7 rounds. He crashed about ten feet in front of me and after about a minute he gave up. When cleaning the attacker I found that the 06 round was a high double lung and three of the 45's had hit. One in the right shoulder ( front on, no vitals or bone) one in the neck to the left of the esophagus (front on) about even with the back and one in his back bone about mid-way, I guess from when he turned away from the noise. After that experience I started looking at different calibers because I didn't feel as safe with the 45 as I had before. I didn't like the 44's fore cost and honestly they just aren't practical. So I decided to try the 357. But which one? For me revolvers are too loud so the good ole Dessert Eagle. When I took it out of the box WOW! the thing is huge. But it was mine so lets check it out. After learning the hard way not to buy cheap ammo I fed her some Gold Dot 158's, Man I love this pistol! By then I was a fair shot but this thing would make a amateur look good. So next, what will it do? Gun season came in a I had my shot gun and my new 357 friend. A couple doe decided to stop by about 40yds. out so I eased down to that spot behind the shoulder and squeezed. She stood there for a few seconds, enough to wonder. Did I miss? And then fell over, well I had seen that with the bow so I was eager to open her up. The Gold Dot 158 is a hollow point and it did it's job. No rib going in, the heart was shredded and the round stopped in the other shoulder. In my opinion if the round doesn't exit it will introduce a stun or shock effect long enough for the real damage to take effect. I believe that so much that now I have found a round for my 270 that most of the time will not exit if I can get it in the opposite shoulder. Shot placement is key no matter what you shoot. Long story short, unless someone builds a 9mm or maybe a 40 with equal ballistics of a 357. The 357 will remain the best practical choice for defense and one shot stopping effect. The help me public doesn't like it because it does it's job without mercy. The bad guy's don't like it because if they know you have it, they will need to go else where. Another good thing about the 357 is range. I have scoped the Eagle with a Burris and it is a machine. It is excellant to 100yds and probably more. This past season I took a doe at 84 yds. I shouldn't tell it but it was a head shot and ofcourse she never knew what hit her. I still like my 45 and I really like the Beretta 9mm we carry in the NC N Guard, but to get er done and NOW the 357 is impressive to say the least.

Sorry for the book, but I got on a roll!  Yippee

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2008 at 13:28
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 I don't know about all that ... but let me put 2 of my 45 auto slugs in him ... he ain't goin nowhere ! Seems even the elite military units scrub the 9mm and carry 45's now . The 9mm's just don't have the knock down power of a 45 . If I was going to make a jump the 44 mag would be it .... not a 357 .... just a souped up 38 . And as far as rifle knockdown ... a 240 grain 30-06 will drop a grizzly in his tracks .... my other choice I use for dead stop hits . 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2008 at 13:34
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really you would use a 240gr sierra match king bullet on a grizzly bear?? cause thats the only company i can find that makes a 240gr bullet in .308 diam i prefer not to shoot any animal that i think would be able to eat me with a target bullet
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2008 at 13:57
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Originally posted by merceanary1947 merceanary1947 wrote:

  a 240 grain 30-06 will drop a grizzly in his tracks .... my other choice I use for dead stop hits . 
  So will a 120gr. 7mm, a 55gr. .243, or even a lowly 38 gr. .22 LR - IF shot placement is perfect.    I watched a video the other day of a guy who dropped a huge grizzly in its tracks with a bow.  He put the arrow right in the bear's eye.  Not what I consider a high percentage or even an ethical shot but, he did it.

No gun, not even a 50 cal. BMG can guarantee you a  one-shot stop on a grizzly bear, or any other big game animal for that matter.

Your better to choose a reasonable caliber that you can shoot well and then worry about shot placement. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2008 at 14:55
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I don't know  merc. Saying the 357 is just a souped up 38 is like saying the 44 special is just a souped up 44 mag.  Yes it is but she's a hot round.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2008 at 16:26
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   Yea mon! I can feel it warming up in here.Devil  This thread is gona get much warmer before she cools.Get%20Your%20Popcorn%20Ready
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2008 at 16:33
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Originally posted by yellowdog yellowdog wrote:

   Yea mon! I can feel it warming up in here.Devil  This thread is gona get much warmer before she cools.Get%20Your%20Popcorn%20Ready
 
Oh, I just HATE when that happens!!
Stiring%20The%20Pot    Snoopy
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2008 at 16:46
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- are you kidding me!  Mark is breaking out the beer and popcorn too

Edited by Dogger - April/18/2008 at 16:59
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2008 at 19:43
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[QUOTE=merceanary1947] I don't know about all that ... but let me put 2 of my 45 auto slugs in him ... he ain't goin nowhere ! Seems even the elite military units scrub the 9mm and carry 45's now . The 9mm's just don't have the knock down power of a 45 .
 
 
 
 
No doubt about it!
 
If the choice is a 45 or a 9mm, the 9 is staying home. If it had been a man charging my 45 two hits would have been plenty. The 357 a souped up 38? Thats ok, but if there is a fire fight and one has a 45 and the other a 357. The guy with the 45 would be lucky to ever get in his effective range before it was over. But if I were clearing a building with hostiles, I be glad to have either one. That is if my saw or shotgun wasn't functioning.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2008 at 10:43
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I don't know about all this Caliber and range discussion, but here where the public carries very few weapons, and average engagement range is 7 yds. I would just pull the trigger on my 9 until it goes click, reload and repeat if needed. This may not be a popular theory, but its what I've got, and I shoot it well. If 15 shots doesn't get it done, then I didn't do my job. I think the first two or three should slow them down at least. I've been lucky enough that the weapon has only had to leave the holster twice, and never had to be fired.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2008 at 20:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2008 at 20:42
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Trigger,
Not trying to start somethin' BUT.  The Le Salle case stopped me from ever carrying a 9mm.
21 round center of mass, the perp still Killed one officer wounded the other, No drugs, no alcohol just one P.O.ed biker.  I agree most defense shooting are under seven yards and only last seconds. I recommend every C.C.P. holder learn and practice the speed rock method of draw and shoot. But I go with sometimes BIGGER HOLES ARE BETTER.   
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/27/2008 at 08:53
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Originally posted by Steelbenz Steelbenz wrote:

Trigger,
Not trying to start somethin' BUT.  The Le Salle case stopped me from ever carrying a 9mm.
21 round center of mass, the perp still Killed one officer wounded the other, No drugs, no alcohol just one P.O.ed biker.  I agree most defense shooting are under seven yards and only last seconds. I recommend every C.C.P. holder learn and practice the speed rock method of draw and shoot. But I go with sometimes BIGGER HOLES ARE BETTER.   
 
 
 
Steelbenz,
 
You and trigger both raise reasonable points, but the case where your attacker will stand and let you dump 15 or 21 rounds in them is all but "0". Plus the fact that if you have to shoot to start with it's likely because they are armed as well. I can't imagine standing toe to toe with someone and unloading on each other. Not Me!. And finally if you are packing a 9mm you will probably be out gunned. That is my biggest dislike of carring a 9mm in the N guard. If we face an armed subject, usually they will have a shotgun, rifle or a larger cal. handgun. You may be able to put every shot in the same hole at 30yds. but that's no good if he gets the first shot and puts you down. If I have to carry into a hostile I'd like the option to choose my defense ( with in reason). 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/27/2008 at 10:18
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My experience is shooting deer. Out of the 12 deer shot with my pistols I have never had a deer walk away from a .357. My 6" trooper has dropped more deer than all of my rifles combined. My hunting is more of the heavy woods and dense cover. It is much faster to get on site with the revolver and it has always done its job.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/27/2008 at 17:59
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Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

 
an average engagement range is 7 yds. I would just pull the trigger on my 9 until it goes click, reload and repeat if needed. This may not be a popular theory, but its what I've got, and I shoot it well.
 
If 15 shots doesn't get it done, then I didn't do my job.
 
I think the first two or three should slow them down at least. 
 
 
Wether inside of 7yds. or out to 30yds. If you get 2 or more rounds center mass and he's not done. You need to shoot higher. In the scramble of a fire fight you would do well to get two rounds on target, so they really need to count. What gets alot of guys is they see that they got a good hit or two and move in too fast. They end up rushing into a blast in the face. The only real reason I see for not carring a 357 is the real risk of collateral damage. If you get one or two good center mass hits with a 357 the odds of having to fire again are considerably less than with a 9mm.
 
trigger, I agree that shooting well is key and does keep us alive. And if I found myself in a problem with my 9 on me I would sure make every round count. But if I had my Eagle, just the sight of it would probably save lives.
 
 
This is 50 rounds 9mm at 30 yards, 25 right hand and 25 left hand. The 357 doesn't make a bigger hole but it does incredible damage. From what Steelbenz said earlier, someone carring 21 9mm center mass (one I've never heard of) sounds unreal, but I have heard of several accounts of men taking 2,3 and 4 rounds and living. The simple fact is something is better than nothing, but given a choice my something is going to be mean.
 
As I was finishing this I realized that it sounds like I'm trying to get you to get a 357, but that isn't my intent. Like you I am just sharing personal experience that might help someone who is looking. The 9mm is alot of fun to shoot!
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