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inherent accuracy

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ckk1106 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ckk1106 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: inherent accuracy
    Posted: October/10/2008 at 17:43
I've heard this question asked before, but wanted to know what you guys think.  Are some cartridges inherently more accurate, or does it have more to do with precision rifles and ammunition?  What cartridges are considered more accurate if there is a difference?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucytuma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2008 at 18:06
Any thing based off a short fat case is considered inherenly more accurate ie: all calibers based on the .308 case and the new short mags.  Others more technically advanced will soon chime in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2008 at 19:58
also some magnums can be as well, of course they wont be like any of the .308 based family, but generally stuff like the 300h&h which held many 1000yrd records for many years can be accurate as well, some of the magnums can be very impressive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2008 at 20:07
One thing you can use to help you decide is looking at what bullet has the highest (best) balistic coeffecient.   The 6.5x284 is reported to be quite accurate but you would have to hand load for that to work.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2008 at 20:47
so is the 6.5x55 swede and the 6.5 creedmoor for the black rifle guys 6.5mms are awesome
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/10/2008 at 23:59
its a relative statement cateris paribus, ex. cartridges that head space on the shoulder will be more accurate than those head spacing on the rim. ex. overbore cartridges are not as accurate as well balanced etc.  ex. the 222 class of cartridges are inherently accurate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graysteel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/18/2008 at 20:23
Consistency is the basis of accuracy.  There are many factors that can contribute to the consistency of a round. For instance, a cartridge case that is full of powder will have the same physical layout each time it is fired. If the cartridge is not full, the powder in the cartridge can lay differently in the case. I am not sure that position of the power will have a noticeable effect on accuracy for most people, but I am sure you understand the example.

The shape of the case does have a noticeable effect on the consistency of the pressure curve. A short fat case is initiated closer to the geometric center of the charge and generates a more consistent pressure curve.  

There is some argument that larger bore rifles are more consistent because manufacturing variances of a given magnitude represent a smaller percentage of the overall cartridge's and projectile's dimensions.

Of course, the rifle the round is fired from is just as important.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2008 at 01:35
A while ago, Warren Page gained access to the Remington Custom Shop's test firing records for the 40X's.  He plotted out the average accuracy for the various cartridge offerings and came up with some interesting conclusions.  Before I get into that, this was about as good a data set as one could hope for short of having someone like Aberdeen or Rock Island undertake a test as this.  Think about it...hundreds of rifles, each rifle made in the same shop to the same standard (in some cases as many as 150 in just a single caliber), ammo put together by the same folks to the same standards, test fired by the same folks on the same range, under the same conditions.  That folks is removing as many variables as possible in the hopes of isolating cartridge as the only variable.

What he found was that as the cartridge size increased, so did the average group size.  Page does a good job discussing other possible reasons for the results (including available bullet quality for caliber and powder column size), but the graph and data remain striking.  The article appeared in the 1968 Gun Digest under the title "The Bigger the Cartridge".  Creighton Audette revisited the article in the NRA Highpower Series in the 1980's and added his well thought out technical theories on why Remington's data presented as such.

The cartridge/Rifle accuracy of course is but one part of the equation.  What is often overlooked, or misattributed is the "human element".  Some cartridges have gained a reputation for accuracy and deadliness on game for the simple reason that they are easy on the shoulder and allow the shooter to deliver the shot effectively.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucytuma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/26/2008 at 09:50
Well put, flinching is good not for accuracy.

Edited by lucytuma - October/26/2008 at 11:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tip69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/28/2008 at 10:00
I would think that in this day and age, they could improve the shooting test by removing the human element..... use a remote trigger pull with the rifle secured to a lead sled or similar.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/28/2008 at 10:17
I am sure they do in all the testing facilities.  They probably have the best barrels mounted in some sort of secure vice with an electronic trigger.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/28/2008 at 12:22
I'm hoping that my human element comment didn't give the impression that I felt it was a factor in the Remington Test data.  I think the shooter element largely eliminated there.  But in the "real world" I believe it plays a bigger role in perceptions of accuracy in day to day conversations than it's given credit for.  I'll stick my neck out a bit...  can you say .270?
 
There are and there have been "return to battery rests" for a long time now, and they were around when Page got the Remington data, but the trade-off is/was the testing of such a broad selection of calibers.  Most of the machine rests/rifle cradles that I'm aware of were/are used for very specific calibers.  For example, I have a couple of articles recounting testing done at Frankford Arsenal back in the 1950's using such a rest, but they were in 30-06 only.  Because of the context of their testing, I would imagine they would have been testing just a handful of military small arms calibers.  I also happen to know that a couple of the military teams use such rests/cradles, but they tend to test 223 and 308 only.  There is a whole class in Benchrest for machine rests, but you'll probably see only benchrest specific chamberings and never the volume of comparative groups shot as Page had from the Remington Custom Shop.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crosswire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/04/2008 at 21:18
"A while ago, Warren Page gained access to the Remington Custom Shop's test firing records for the 40X's.  He plotted out the average accuracy for the various cartridge offerings and came up with some interesting conclusions. "
 
Warren Page was a close friend with Mike Walker.  Walker started and headed the Rem. Custom shop for years.  He was the designer of the Rem 721,722, 700 and 40X rifles, invented the .222 and developed several other successful cartridges for Remington.   He also found a way to button rifle bores for WWII, the first time it was successfully done and later helped the Harts get started in the target rifle barrel business.  Both Page and Walker knew their business and both were founders of BR shooting in the US. 
 
Walker knew smaller cartridges were more accurate than the larger.  Page researched the Custom Shop data to find the statistics.  The finished rifles test fired by workers, not machine rests, according to Walker. 
 
On average, they found the .222 is slightly better than the .223, the .223 is slightly better than the .222 Mag, the .308 is slightly better than the 30-06, etc.  What they missed was the small effect of the ratio between case length and diameter, that was found in the PPC line much later. 
 
Even so, the .222 will actually shoot about as well as the .22 PPC but the velocity is so much less that it's more sensitive to wind.  The .222 lost a lot of BR matches because of that.  Even so, the shape of the case is less significant than is commonly thought. 
 
The concept of "inherent" accuracy is geatly over rated, IMHO.  The quality of the build, bullets and powder capacity of the case are much more important to accuracy than the case shape.  So is the recoil level, no one can shoot a heavy kicker as well as they can a lighter cartridge and rifle that can be fired "free recoil."
 
It happens that high quality bullet jackets are easier to make in quanity in .24 caliber than others, thus the .24s tend to show better average accuracy.  But that's not quite the same thing as saying the .24 cartridges are inherently more accurate, is it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/05/2008 at 00:08
Crosswire,
Thank you for filling in the blanks on the whole Warren Page/Remington Custom Shop story.  Yes, the confounding factors were recoil (and the human element), and quality of bullets available.  BTW, the 308/7.62Nato was not just slightly better than the 30-06.  It was one of the more noticeable gaps.  There also didn't appear to be any trend favoring "short and fat" powder columns as is the oft repeated optimum case design. (sorry Rick Jamison, the Remington data doesn't support your patent).  Being that this was 40 years ago now, perhaps more powders available to optimize the burn would have shown different...but the 6x47 shot tighter than the 6mm Remington which in turn shot tighter than the 6.5 RemMag.

On the subject of the quality of 24 cal jackets.  I had heard it said that Remington made the best 22 caliber BenchRest jackets ever during the 70's/80's.  Something to the effect that Big Green was able to put the resources of DuPont behind the manufacture of near perfect jackets that are coveted to this day.  I still wonder if that statement is true.

Optimum powder capacity for accuracy?  Perhaps.  The 22 and 6BR while accurate, never seemed to dethrone the PPC (although Jim Steckl got some attention with those wonderful groups he shot for the Remington catalogs (perhaps with those perfect Remington jackets).  I'd been told it was a bit overcapacity for short range benchrest.  (...although it seems to be the ticket with a fast twist barrel for Highpower Rifle out to 600yds and sometimes beyond).

BTW, I just had another random recollection.  Did you know that Jim Steckl went to go work for Hart Barrels after leaving Remington?  I got him on the phone there a number of years back.

The Page/Remington data was not perfect.  But I still believe it gives us interesting insights into what might drive accuracy (at least in a 40x).   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/05/2008 at 00:10
p.s.  I'm a huge Mike Walker fan.  I don't think he get's his due in raising the bar for accuracy standards from factory rifles.  I even have a couple of his Remington scopes!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crosswire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/05/2008 at 11:39
My source of info on that data was Walker himself.  I got acuaited with him and his first wife. Olive, just before he died.  Helped him move most of his stuff to NC from Lady Lake, FL.  We have remained friends but it's hard to visit with him because he is so near totally deaf.  I only know Stekel from Mike's stories.
 
I know the original Rem HPCL .243 bullets shoot extremly well in my .243, by far the best bullet I ever found for it.  Mike says they had plated jackets, not cup, and were dropped because reloaders just didn't buy them in sufficent quanities to continue production.   New Rem .243 bullets, cup and core, also shoot good but not as well as the old ones.
 
Mike still has a large quanity of old parts from his Reminton and BR days. Included enough parts to build a Remington 24X scope, Unertl mounts and all.  I watched him assemble it and then he gave it to me to hang on my old 40X in 6mm International.  The International is another cartridge he designed but it never shot well enough to make a mark in competion.
 
Mike is a real gentleman, I admire him a lot.  He's in the early 90s now, if I remember correctly.  He and his nice second wife live near here.  He is really frail now.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steelbenz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/05/2008 at 16:19
Originally posted by Crosswire Crosswire wrote:

My source of info on that data was Walker himself.  I got acuaited with him and his first wife. Olive, just before he died.  Helped him move most of his stuff to NC from Lady Lake, FL.  We have remained friends but it's hard to visit with him because he is so near totally deaf.  I only know Stekel from Mike's stories.
 
I know the original Rem HPCL .243 bullets shoot extremly well in my .243, by far the best bullet I ever found for it.  Mike says they had plated jackets, not cup, and were dropped because reloaders just didn't buy them in sufficent quanities to continue production.   New Rem .243 bullets, cup and core, also shoot good but not as well as the old ones.
 
Mike still has a large quanity of old parts from his Reminton and BR days. Included enough parts to build a Remington 24X scope, Unertl mounts and all.  I watched him assemble it and then he gave it to me to hang on my old 40X in 6mm International.  The International is another cartridge he designed but it never shot well enough to make a mark in competion.
 
Mike is a real gentleman, I admire him a lot.  He's in the early 90s now, if I remember correctly.  He and his nice second wife live near here.  He is really frail now.   


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chris F Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/06/2008 at 14:30
Crosswire,
I dug up my old PS Special Edition with the article on Remington Scopes by Jeff Aberegg (1994).  Rereading it, it's a great history on these scopes.  Mike Walkers account is prominent in this article.  E-mail me if you'd like a copy.  Somewhere in that same time period, PS did an interview with Mike Walker and featured him on the cover.  (He drove an SVX back then).  What I wouldn't give to be in your position to pick his brains on what he's seen and done.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Crosswire Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/06/2008 at 17:15
Chris, your thoughts made me chuckle.  I understand, would like to get more from him myself.  But ... ever try to talk to a guy who's 'bout deaf as a stump?  It's frustrating to both of us so we mostly just smile and nod as if we understand. 
 
Most of what I got came from his rambling conversation on our two trips to Lady Lake, I dint get many questions in even back then.  He's much worse now.  A wealth of information will be lost when Mike passes. 
 
He has already out lived his first wife and both daughters so he's a tuff ol' guy.
]
Back when I had a FFL, he ordered a Stolle action through me, he had given up trying to make a 40X competetive.  He got a Hart barrel, of course, and installed and chamber it himself in his garage shop.  It really shot well to.  But, he used a Leupold scope on it, not one of his own Remington designs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mr twister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/06/2008 at 22:04
Never owned a high quality 22 RF, 222 Remington or 308 Winchester that would not shoot 1/4=1/2 MOA.
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