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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/22/2007 at 18:22
jackG View Drop Down
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Okay, I'm shopping again, and once again I am seeking direction.    I'm shooting a 270 wsm with a Sightron SII, 3-9.  I do open country hunting, which means shooting ranges can stretch out there a bit.  My motive for buying a new scope is to increase the magnification and reel those targets in closer.  The power ranges under consideration would be from perhaps 4-12 or 4.5-16, and a 40 or 50 mm objective.  A 50 mm objective has a larger bell, but I can adapt.

 

My quesitons center around the difference between the mid range stuff, as near as I can tell, that includes the 4200, the Monarch, the Big Sky, Burris, some Leupolds, and so on, and the so-called, high end scopes. Examples of those include the S&B, Swarovski, Meopta, IRO, some Leupolds (the debate stews on that subject), the Kalhes, and others. 

 

I'm trying to up the power range but I'd like to do so without an AO.  I suppose I'm leaning away from the AO because I'm used to a non-AO scope, and I resist change.  After all, without it, I'm succeeding very well, why complicate the process?  Although I could probably be talked into it if the right words were chosen.

 

I have made some basic assumptions regarding different manufacturers that may be false.  For one thing, generally, they all are mechanically sound.  We won't wake up on a frosty morning and find condensed water vapor looking out at us from behind the glass with any of them.  The adjustment knobs click properly and receive the input we send them.  The fit an finish is good.  They faithfully maintain their point of aim, and they endure under normal hunting conditions. 

 

I understand there are differences in their customer service regardless of what is claimed.  Some do a very good job and make things right, others can put up a spirited rear guard defense for fending off customer compliants, and I hear that some try and weasel out altogether if possible. 

 

Assuming they are all pretty well made, and assuming I won't need customer service or I'll have a conscientious rep in the event I need one, how great are the optical and functional differences, between the middie and the high end guys?  I confess that I'm leaning a bit toward the Sightron SII big sky from the middle group, in part because I've got a Sightron and like it, and because I  can get the power range I'm seeking without an AO.  From the high end I'm tilting toward the Kahles, KX.   I realize there are more expensive units produced by that company, however, the glass itself is pretty much level.  I could get the Kahles and still hold onto the tattered remnants of a budget.  I confess there is a bit of snob appeal with the Kahles.  I can see myself unpacking my rifle in Terry, MT. and being asked, "what glass you got on that thing?"  It would be satisfying to calmly answer, "Kahles." 

 

With the Sightron going for around $500 and the Kahles for $800, there is a ligitimate quesiton regarding if that little dab of vanity is worth 3 Cs.   In the end I'm more interested in function.   I can't help but wonder if I got the Sightron would I regret not having spent the exrta $ and gotten the high end unit.   I think most of us tend to start near the bottom and work our way up.   Each time we realize there is a better one out there, we eventually talk ourselves into it, and move up anyway.   That accounts for gun safes stuffed with a progression of scopes starting at the 3200 or whatever and winding up with German glass.  It's kind of an adaptation we do.  Spending more on the scope than the rifle it sits on is initially obsurd and offensive.  However, with time, I find myself getting used to idea. 

 

For those who own both middie and high ends, how great is the difference in practical US hunting situations?   

 

 

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/22/2007 at 18:25
pyro6999 View Drop Down
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OT TITAN

Joined: December/22/2006
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kahles kx you cant go wrong!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/22/2007 at 18:55
RONK View Drop Down
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  I think you should spend the extra and get the Kahles, because you will always be second guessing yourself if you don't, (justifiably or not).

  For what it's worth, a crusty old Montana guide will most certainly NOT be impressed with a scope he may very well have never heard of. Want to impress him? Shoot very well and as quickly as you can. An old Colorado elk hunter of vast experience and more kills than probably any man alive once told me, " You have to be ready to kill an elk every second you are out there. They just don't give you alot of time. Give yourself ONE SECOND from the time you positively identify him as the bull you want, to get that bullet into his ribs!"  I've never found that advice to be wrong, in and of itself...

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/22/2007 at 19:19
martin3175 View Drop Down
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By the best you can afford- Kahles , and that way no second guesses about the purchase..... ( No... "Wow --I could 've had a V8 ----or Kahles " )
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/22/2007 at 19:25
TheDrakeTaker View Drop Down
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Agreed, get the Kahles.  You will not be disappointed and you will love the clarity and the wide field of view that it has.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/23/2007 at 13:02
koshkin View Drop Down
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jackG, if I understand this correctly, you are trying to identify and resolve distant targets without going to AO or side focus scopes, right?  Then you really should be looking at the highest optical quality you can afford.  Even with the same magnification you will be able to see further with better glass.

Get the Kahles.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/23/2007 at 13:25
Dolphin View Drop Down
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I am going to go against the grain on this (wow, that is unusual).  You say you are happy with the Sightron.  Well the Big Sky glass is going to be the equal, if not better, even at the higher magnifications.  I have a Sightron SII, that goes to 14x and it is plenty clear at that power and to me, is not worth the extra 300 dollars to go for the Kahles.  I would rather spend the 300 dollars into hand loads that will really affect the accuracy of your rifle at longer distances.  If you do not hand load, 300 dollars could easily get you started.  Just my 2 cents.

Edited by Dolphin
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/23/2007 at 13:36
tahqua View Drop Down
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I would gladly put the SII in the company of Monarch, 4200 and VX-III. A Kahles it is certainly not, to these eyes.

I don't need AO on a big game rifle and being able to see an animal I have found through my Zeiss binos is important. The "clear" winner for me has been and will continue to be Kahles. It puts you up in the top drawer for reasonable cost.

Check out the AH series, they use the same glass and coatings as the rest of the line

http://www.samplelist.com/default.aspx?display_num=10&mf g_selection=5&prod_type=1&hide_sold=false

 

Doug

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/23/2007 at 17:08
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JackG...............It all comes down to,,,, how much money you are willing to part with?? If you want to spend $800 or so, then buy the Kahles!! Simple!! It is a wonderful scope!!.........Or! You can buy a lesser priced scope that will accomplish the same thing, then take the difference in dollars and buy some reloading supplies or whatever else you need to get...........Lets face it here! The Sightrons, the Monarchs, the VX111s, Kahles, Zeiss, Meoptas, the Burris` and a few others will all do you well. The real questions are; what scope will provide outstanding glass, excellent dependability/durability while offering the best value going? What scope will accomplish the same thing as all those listed above ie., in the field and under all possible weather conditions?................The 4x16 Elite 4200 will do it all and will bag your game just as well as any of the above and under any possible condition. It will compete with any of the higher priced big boys! With the 4200`s Rainguard, I would put just as much credence or assurance in never losing a shot, as I would a 2K+ Swaro or any high priced scope............I have always been a fan of the underdog! I walk into a pig hunting camp and get asked; whatcha got mounted on there?? A Bushnell Elite 4200!!.....Because of their ignorance or lack of knowledge, I just enjoy watching the smirks and even some dismay on their faces!!        My question to them is; would you like to take a peek through my,,,,,,, Bushnell?..........As always, the smirks and the dismay due to their `ol school thinking, quickly turn into astonishment, especially from the Leupy owners.   Same results at the range too!......For a greater reaction, maybe I should just say a Bushnell instead; leave out the Elite 4200 part.....Yep! I`ll do that from now on!   Disappoint a few a few Leupy owners in the process!!  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/23/2007 at 17:11
koshkin View Drop Down
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Big Squeeze, he specifically asked for a scope without AO.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/23/2007 at 17:23
Big Squeeze View Drop Down
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OOOOPS!!!!! You are right!!! UH OH!!!     It`s the 2.5 x 10`s that don`t have the AO!!! I confused those with the 4x16`s............I ain`t losing it,,,,,,,,,,,yet!! 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/23/2007 at 18:34
jackG View Drop Down
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The advice on this forum is excellent.  I'm really going back and forth on this.  I'm even willing to relent on my non-AO preference. It sounds as if I could live with that either way. 

 

I'm aware that the mid range rifle scope arena is crawling with competition.  I recall taking a look through a Sightron ll for the first time and I was astonished at the quality of the glass.   I compared it side by side with a VX-lll and a Monarch and I preferred the bright image of them both over the Leupold.  I'm not recommending they are superior, but to my eye, I liked their glass better.

 

In that mid range group it is clear that I can get a higher powered scope than the 3-9 I'm currently using, for substantially fewer dollars than the Kahles.   And it's likely that the Kahle image is not $300/$500 = 60% better.  I dont' much like making foolish decisions, either spending too much money or, ceding quality, to too great a degree.  The bottom line is, I cannot go wrong with either choice. 

 

I think I new to handle an AO scope and see how bit a deal making that adjustment might be.  That would help narrowing the field even more.    Then I'll stew on it, some more.

 

 

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/23/2007 at 18:42
TheDrakeTaker View Drop Down
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Jack,

You say there will not likely be a 60% difference, you could be right.  At first, I didn't see that big of a difference when I jumped from the Nikons to Kahles, now after using my Kahles C 3-12X56 for a season I cannot look through any lesser scope.  Seriously it is painful.  Even the 3-9 4200 I have.  If you make the jump, you will not go back.  Good luck with your choice, consider the C line as well, ridiculously good, worth the money.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/23/2007 at 19:16
jackG View Drop Down
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Okay Tahua, I went to the sample list.  I looked around for a way to ask questions on the website and failed to find one.  Do these scopes have a warranty on them?  And have any of the forumites purchased from that site? 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/23/2007 at 19:22
jackG View Drop Down
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Found it at the bottom. 
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