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And I need some advice from the collective.
 
Originally, I was interested in a Remington model 70, chambered in 30-06, with a heavy barrel (26+ inches) 1 in 11 or 1 in 12 twist, 5-flute (if I could get it; I don't think so) for long-range target shooting.
 
I hooked up with a contractor who is now retired (IED destroyed his pelvis and back- he can walk [and shoot] fine again) as a personal instructor / shooting buddy who convinced me to switch over to the .308, which I have done.
 
With that out of the way, I quickly realized the model 70 is hard to find these days (I did locate a model 70 national match in 30-06; however it is over 4 grand and mechanically unknown condition) and the 700 seems to be the way to go.
 
Well, my instructor has his M40 and that shoots well, but is opinion of Remington quality control is less than beaming to put it politely. He feels they are on a nine-year cycle or so where they have high points in quality, as well as low points, with 'now' being a low point. In other words, he feels the Remington 700 is a bit overpriced for what you are getting right now.
 
So the search continues. I looked into the Savage model 12 F/TR (single shot .308) and that seems to be a nice piece with rave reviews. My instructor agreed that for the money, the Savage out of the box is hard to beat. I have two dealers near me who can get it (hovering around $1,000.00 +/- $50.00) but if I order it, I own it. No chance to even check the fit before purchase, so that puts me off a bit.
 
Which brings me back to the 700. I want a longer barrel, not the short 20" barrels that are 'all the rage' with the "tactical" crowd. I don't need to duck around burning cars and make sub-100 meter shots. I will be comfortably behind my rifle, in full view of everyone, shooting paper as far as 1000 yards away. I want a longer barrel.
 
With that out of the way, my options with Remington seem to be a bit narrowed. I looked into their M24 offering, and that seems OK; however the barrel is a touch shorter than I'd like. It does have the redeeming quality of a 5-groove barrel, however, with a reported military life test of 14,000 rounds. Also a nice touch. No idea on price as of now (I will look into this) but I think this bare rifle will exceed the cost of the Savage by 100% or more.
 
So, with so many new 700's selling at ~$500-$600 dollars, should I just get a "cheap" new 700 and "shut up and shoot"?
 
Maybe I'm being a 'whiner' here, but besides the (expensive) Remington custom shop, it seems to me that a new 700 will be a 'hit or miss' proposition for me. I am still learning the sport, and don't expect to be the super-shooting-ace out of the gate, but I also don't want to be wondering if I spent a little more would I have gotten a much better rifle. Maybe, maybe not...
 
And for those wondering, I want to compete in a 'stock rifle' class that I believe excludes custom-built rifles. For now anyway. If I'm as good at this as I hope to be, a custom rifle (perhaps accuracy international) will be the way to go for me. I just can't justify the money in the event I suck ass at this game... Anyway, replies, comments, suggestions welcome.
 
Let the games begin...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2008 at 18:52
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How bout an FN SPR?  I had one in 300 WSM and it shot 1/2 MOA no problem. 
http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/family.asp?fid=FNF006&gid=FNG005
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2008 at 19:10
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Jim,
A couple of questions:
1.  What does "target rifle" mean to you?
2.  What particular competitive discipline are you participating in?
3.  What are the rules defining "stock rifle" as you describe here?
4.  In this "stock rifle" class, are any modifications allowed?
 
The answers to these questions will determine the best options for you.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2008 at 19:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2008 at 19:32
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Jim,
 
I have recently embarked on a similar journey. I've choose a different cal. But like you my goal is above average accuracy. Most of these guys like the 308 for a number of reasons and I hope you will get alot of responses.
 
Because I wanted a certain barrel length and contour I chose to go the custom route. I see your options being to find a custom rifle someone is ready to let go of or go with one of the newer rifles.
One of the guys I hunt with has a Sendro in the 300, and out of the box it shoots .5 at 100. I don't know if he lucked up or if most of them are that good. Or go with a custom build. A short action donor rifle will cost less than a long action and there are several custom action builders (Stiller) out there depending on your buget. There is a fair amount to learn when building a custom rifle but the info is unlimited on line.
I'm having Kreiger build my barrel and blueprint my action to the barrel. It is a fluted 24in. Stainless with a custom contour. And I have chosen the Rem 700 action, but the gun smith doesn't care what action you use as long as you don't change mid-stream. When the barrel/action reaches my door I will have around 1200.00 in it. Then I will either use a scope I have (not) or buy one better suited for the rifle.
If you stay with a 308 build I would expect it to cost, if you buy the donor rifle, a barrel, have it assembled and blueprinted and use the donor stock around +/- 800.00 w/o the scope.
 

So you could come out about the same as a factory rig, but with the custom barrel most builders will guarantee a certain moa.

Keep us posted on what you do. Good Luck!          
 
Here is an example of a stainless 308 on Gunbroker.


Edited by Sgt. D - April/22/2008 at 22:12
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2008 at 20:38
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people only shoot 308 because that don't have something better. sako trg 42 , fn, 300 wsm either can be loaded to a hot 30-06 if yu  choose.

a good stock will run you 600-700. so if you like the winchester actions (and you should) the spr series is pretty hard to beat.  A4 with leo

 
 
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2008 at 20:50
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Just grab a pss and shoot the barrel off it.  Put a 10x SuperSniper on it with some decent rings.
 
Send it to PacNor for a $550.00 barrel install when you're shot out, sell the stock for $200.00 and put that toward something that fits properly.  If you feel the scope needs upgrade at that  time you'll get almost 90% of your purchase price back within hours of posting it for sale.
 
I have alittle  personal experience that lends me to think the factory stock remington will out perform most hobby shooters abilities.  It will hold it's own in 1000 yard F/TR comps with a hobby  shottist running it.
 
I'm willing to bet that a stock pss will outshoot you right now.  Think of it as your new bike with training wheels.  About the time you get good enough to outperform the rifle, the barrel will be shot out and you can take the wheels off and have some real fun.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2008 at 21:47
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[QUOTE=J!m] I want a longer barrel.
 
With that out of the way, my options with Remington seem to be a bit narrowed. I looked into their M24 offering, and that seems OK; however the barrel is a touch shorter than I'd like. It does have the redeeming quality of a 5-groove barrel, however, with a reported military life test of 14,000 rounds. Also a nice touch. No idea on price as of now (I will look into this) but I think this bare rifle will exceed the cost of the Savage by 100% or more.
 
So, with so many new 700's selling at ~$500-$600 dollars, should I just get a "cheap" new 700 and "shut up and shoot"?
 
 
 
I was determined that I wanted a longer barrel also, but then learned that more length increases pontential barrel whip. So I backed from a 28" to a 24" because the available info
showed that the added length could hurt more than help. Hands down stiffer barrels show to shoot more consistantly.
If you can live with blue over stainless you can get a rem 700 very reasonable. To use as is or use for a build, in fact if you go to Gunbroker you will find plenty of choices of just about all makes.
If I was willing to build blue I could shave a couple hundred of my project but no thanks.
What ever cal. you choose do it for your reasons, your the one who will prove the choice to yourself. I think my friends Sendero has a 26" barrel so there are some really good factory choices out there if you don't want to build one. Again Good Luck!


Edited by Sgt. D - April/22/2008 at 23:47
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2008 at 22:09
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My reasons for liking the FN SPR

1.  It has a winchester pre 64 action that is controlled round push feed.  That means your round is controlled all the way from the magazine into the chamber.  Less chance of a problem that way and you can even chamber rounds upside down.

2.  The chrome lined barrel.  Some will say chrome is not good for accuracy because they are used to an AR that typically looses a little accuracy because of the chrome.  But that is not the case in the SPR they done it right and they shoot great.  Also the chrome lining will make them last for a very very long time.  I talked to one of the guys at FN and he said they should be good for at least 10,000 to 15,000 rounds if not more.

3.  The Mcmillan stocks that come with them are fantastic.  Very comfortable to lay on and are very strong.

4.  Because of the controlled round push feed you can control easier how you eject your spent brass.  If you pull it out slowly they will pile up right below your action.  Or if you want to pop them out fast it will toss them out there a ways.  With the remington it just pops them out with a lot more force and you don't have much control over it. 

5.  Very easily adjusted trigger.

Cons

1.  Trigger is hard to get the creep out of.  You will need a good trigger man to do that. 

2.  The 300 I had you could only get 2 rounds in the mag.

3.  The weight, (not necessarily a bad thing for a target gun ) but not a good carry gun but good for the bench or fore prone.

4.  I also don't like the safety on the model 70 action.  I think 3 position safeties are stupid and I don't like the fact I have to break my firing grip to flip it.  On my remington I can manipulate it without breaking my grip.



Edited by supertool73 - April/23/2008 at 01:05
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2008 at 22:16
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Go to an area match or two and talk with the guys before you spend the money.  See what fits you, before sending your time chasing "paper" tigers.  READ THE RULE BOOK before spending money!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2008 at 23:44
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part of the problem is the orginal poster wants info on a remington mod. 70 -- so would I. assuming at this point he is confused or mistyped the question comes down to a 700 rebuild or wants something different as a win mod. 70. remingtons are chosen simply because they are easier and thus cheaper to the consumer. as mike suggests maybe just buy and shoot till you really know what you want. in any event the spr and the sako are probably some of the finest factory out there and really not much different in cost than a blue printed rem with a 600 barrel and a $700 stock. they are different than hunting rifles, senderos, varmit or otherwise. No mention was made here of the really tripping stuff, bat action, f-class stock, air gauged barrels etc. So--- I'm wondering at the grain of salt comment also.
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 He said the qualifying arena was non custom built .... what that means in what degree they consider non custom is anyone's guess . Think he had better get the rules book in detail and ask an advisor in that specific match gauntlet . Remington 700 not reliable he heard  ?????  We used them for sniper shots in the 60's  ..... dropped a bucu bunch of gooks ! They've been perfecting them for over 40 years .... hummmm .... maybe I've been missing something .
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/23/2008 at 06:53
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

How bout an FN SPR?  I had one in 300 WSM and it shot 1/2 MOA no problem. 
http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/family.asp?fid=FNF006&gid=FNG005
 
I just looked and the FN A2 SPR looks good (in .308 for me) what do these go for? I don't think my local dealers cary these, but I'm sure they can get them. Same boat as the Savage 12 F/TR; not a normal stock item, so special order, so you order it you own it etc...
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Jim,
A couple of questions:
1.  What does "target rifle" mean to you?
2.  What particular competitive discipline are you participating in?
3.  What are the rules defining "stock rifle" as you describe here?
4.  In this "stock rifle" class, are any modifications allowed?
 
The answers to these questions will determine the best options for you.
 
These are excellent questions I have also asked, and not been answered to my own satisfaction...
 
1) "Target Rifle" means a rifle that I shoot targets with. I do not hunt (well, bids with my Franchi Falconet, but that's a bit off topic)
2) I assume to be competing in F class, stock rifle, to keep me from the jaws of the hard-core guys (at least at first)
3) This is the one I have not had answered. My UNDERSTANDING is a rifle in 'as-delivered' condition that anyone could theoretically go to their local gun shop and either order or purchase off the shelf. No trigger changes, no barrel changes, no action blueprinting etc. "out of box" to compare to the model building contests I sometimes enter- no parts changed or replaced. BUT, I have not seen a copy of the 'official rules' to make this clear to my satisfaction. I DO know that the Savage is made to fit that niche however...
4) I think the only modifications allowed MAY be length of pull to fit the rifle properly, adding a bi-pod and optics with whatever mounting you like. That is about it if I understand correctly.
 
I fully invite anyone competing in F class (either stock or open) to enlighten me!Yippee
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Originally posted by Sgt. D Sgt. D wrote:

Jim,
 
I have recently embarked on a similar journey. I've choose a different cal. But like you my goal is above average accuracy. Most of these guys like the 308 for a number of reasons and I hope you will get alot of responses.
 
Because I wanted a certain barrel length and contour I chose to go the custom route. I see your options being to find a custom rifle someone is ready to let go of or go with one of the newer rifles.
One of the guys I hunt with has a Sendro in the 300, and out of the box it shoots .5 at 100. I don't know if he lucked up or if most of them are that good. Or go with a custom build. A short action donor rifle will cost less than a long action and there are several custom action builders (Stiller) out there depending on your buget. There is a fair amount to learn when building a custom rifle but the info is unlimited on line.
I'm having Kreiger build my barrel and blueprint my action to the barrel. It is a fluted 24in. Stainless with a custom contour. And I have chosen the Rem 700 action, but the gun smith doesn't care what action you use as long as you don't change mid-stream. When the barrel/action reaches my door I will have around 1200.00 in it. Then I will either use a scope I have (not) or buy one better suited for the rifle.
If you stay with a 308 build I would expect it to cost, if you buy the donor rifle, a barrel, have it assembled and blueprinted and use the donor stock around +/- 800.00 w/o the scope.
 

So you could come out about the same as a factory rig, but with the custom barrel most builders will guarantee a certain moa.

Keep us posted on what you do. Good Luck!          
 
Here is an example of a stainless 308 on Gunbroker.
 
hey, sarge. Thanks for the reply.
 
I want to stay in stock class so I don't get my ass handed to me, but I agree that to get exactly' what I want, a custom is the way to go. Down the road I will very likely be disappointed with the performance of a 'stock' rifle, and be forced to upgrade equipment and class. Until then, I need trigger time, and leaning toward a 'cheaper' rifle, such as a stock R700, and just get my own problems sorted out (breathing, sight picture, range estimation etc.).
 
I am not a 'greenhorn' but I am far from an experienced 'trigger man' either. I misspent my youth with a 9mm Sig Sauer P226 in my hand, wasting about 3-500 rounds a week... Now I'm ready to move on to the more disciplined sport.
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

people only shoot 308 because that don't have something better. sako trg 42 , fn, 300 wsm either can be loaded to a hot 30-06 if yu  choose.

a good stock will run you 600-700. so if you like the winchester actions (and you should) the spr series is pretty hard to beat.  A4 with leo

 
 
 
 
 
This looks like what I'm in the mood for- what I read quickly about the FN seems to indicate it has the lost features of the great Remington model 70 action with all the updates of modern machinery and quality control of FN.
 
Based on your rifle pictured above, I would only change a few things:
 
1) Flash hider would have to be replaced with a muzzle brake. More useful, and I won't be arrested. I would get one that vents to the sides only if I could (assuming it is allowed at all)
 
2) Optic. I would lean toward IOR or Schmidt&Bender over Leupold at this point. Of course, if the rifle gets too expensive, I may have to settle... Leupold was my first choice until I started digging deeper into it...
 
3) I would add a sling. They are useful for standing and some other positions off the bench.
 
I like that stock- A LOT! I like the relief under the heel for my hand, and I like the adjust ability because I have an abnormally long length of pull (monkey arms). I am sure I could make that stock fit me perfectly, to ensure a consistent stock weld.
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Originally posted by Mike McDonald Mike McDonald wrote:

Just grab a pss and shoot the barrel off it.  Put a 10x SuperSniper on it with some decent rings.
  
I'm willing to bet that a stock pss will outshoot you right now.  Think of it as your new bike with training wheels.  About the time you get good enough to outperform the rifle, the barrel will be shot out and you can take the wheels off and have some real fun.
 
This is the other side of the proverbial coin, and I am starting to lean this way.
 
get a 'cheap' new or used 700 and come home black-and blue from the range every week after puting several hundred rounds down range.
 
I also have to learn the fine art of ammunition contruction (tuning to the rifle) and with so many choices for this aspect of the project, I have a lot to leanr here too. I fully understand that I need to construct my own ammunition to tap the full potential of ANY rifle...
 
BUT, that FN sure looks puurrdy...Smile
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1) HAVE YOU BEEN TO A MATCH?
 
2) HAVE YOU READ THE RULE BOOK?
 
Until you have done both, don't spend your money. I typed that as slow as I could...
 
People don't tell us what game they're shooting...  They ask for advice with conflicting information.  Then other people complain that we respond with crapWhacko  Then other people complain when don't respond at all.Juggle
 
It is not my intention to be rude, but Garbage in = Garbage out.
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When did REMINGTON make a modle 70?
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Originally posted by Sgt. D Sgt. D wrote:

I was determined that I wanted a longer barrel also, but then learned that more length increases pontential barrel whip. So I backed from a 28" to a 24" because the available info showed that the added length could hurt more than help. Hands down stiffer barrels show to shoot more consistantly.
 
This is absolutely true information. A longer barrel will increase projectile velocity, and the propensity for 'whip' will increase if the diameter is not increased along with the length. I was just looking at these formulas last night as it turns out. And, yes, if the barrel is the same diameter (wall thickness) and the length is changed, the whip will be more pronounced. Conversely, if the barrel is shorter (and stiffer) it will be more stable. So, if you cannot increase diameter, decreasing length is the way to increase stiffness/decrease whip. I 100% agree with you on that.
 
Originally posted by Sgt. d Sgt. d wrote:

If you can live with blue over stainless you can get a rem 700 very reasonable. To use as is or use for a build, in fact if you go to Gunbroker you will find plenty of choices of just about all makes.
 
If I was willing to build blue I could shave a couple hundred of my project but no thanks.
What ever cal. you choose do it for your reasons, your the one who will prove the choice to yourself. I think my friends Sendero has a 26" barrel so there are some really good factory choices out there if you don't want to build one. Again Good Luck!
 
I want a stainless barrel for the longevity aspect. I plan to shoot it out, so frequent cleaning will be the norm. The stainless is more resistant to throat erosion, although I do not plan to load as hot as possible (unless the rifle prefers this loading, but normally they don't). Due to lack of knowledge, possible mistakes in cleaning regimens and load tuning I still hope to get 5-10K rounds out of the barrel...
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

My reasons for liking the FN SPR

1.  It has a winchester pre 64 action that is controlled round push feed.  That means your round is controlled all the way from the magazine into the chamber.  Less chance of a problem that way and you can even chamber rounds upside down.
 
I love the 70 action. I wanted a 70 as my first post indicates. The more I see this rifle, the more I like it...

Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

2.  The chrome lined barrel.  Some will say chrome is not good for accuracy because they are used to an AR that typically looses a little accuracy because of the chrome.  But that is not the case in the SPR they done it right and they shoot great.  Also the chrome lining will make them last for a very very long time.  I talked to one of the guys at FN and he said they should be good for at least 10,000 to 15,000 rounds if not more.
 
Also good news. I am not against a chrome liner at all. Like any rifle, the load needs to be tailored to the rifle. This barrel will like a different load than an unlined barrel but there are so many variables and choices I am confident I can get this to shoot well.

Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

3.  The Mcmillan stocks that come with them are fantastic.  Very comfortable to lay on and are very strong.
 
I agree these look fantastic. The adjustably and relief under the heel are awesome for me...

Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

4.  Because of the controlled round push feed you can control easier how you eject your spent brass.  If you pull it out slowly they will pile up right below your action.  Or if you want to pop them out fast it will toss them out there a ways.  With the remington it just pops them out with a lot more force and you don't have much control over it. 
 
I tend to load one round at a time to protect the bullet tip, so this is good news. I don't want to hunt for my brass either, so I eject into my hand (and have the burns to prove it)

Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

5.  Very easily adjusted trigger.

Also good, but I see below it creeps. I HATE creep! Can a Jewel or other aftermarket Remington trigger be dropped in (assuming I can do this and stay within the rules)?
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Cons

1.  Trigger is hard to get the creep out of.  You will need a good trigger man to do that. 
 
Not cool, as mentioned above. I don't need a 1/2 oz break, but I REALLY hate creep... 

Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

2.  The 300 I had you could only get 2 rounds in the mag.
 
Not an issue since I single feed anyway.

Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

3.  The weight, (not necessarily a bad thing for a target gun ) but not a good carry gun but good for the bench or fore prone.
 
I guess I have to start working out again!

Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

4.  I also don't like the safety on the model 70 action.  I think 3 position safeties are stupid and I don't like the fact I have to break my firing grip to flip it.  On my remington I can manipulate it without breaking my grip.
 
I actually like the three-position safety, particularly with a "light" trigger. Running the bolt in to have it discharge is not cool at all. I close my bolt, select 'fire' and then weld-up. Every shot, every time. I don't have a need for rapid 'follow up' shots, as I am not a tactical shooter. I understand you dislike for this, but I feel it will help me to get into a solid 'groove' of doing exactly the same steps exactly the same way, every single shot. Consistency and repeatability of the rifle and shooter are what bring the "system" together...
 
Excellent 'report' from your first hand experience. The more I hear about this rifle, the more I like it.
 
What is the 'going rate' for a bare (no optic) FN A2 SPR? Does anyone know?
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the point with velocity is to keep the bullet "hot" above the speed of sound. from a theory point of view you observation of length is correct, but in actual use doesn't mean anything. 28 and 30 are used all the time, particularly if your stuck with a 308 in keeping  200 thru 175 hot enough. If your shooting at a sanctioned event or public range you can forget the break, heres a bunch of reads on f-class

http://search.freefind.com/find.html?id=54477169&pageid=r&mode=ALL&n=0&query=f+class

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Originally posted by silver silver wrote:

Go to an area match or two and talk with the guys before you spend the money.  See what fits you, before sending your time chasing "paper" tigers.  READ THE RULE BOOK before spending money!
 
Excellent advice that I had intended to follow anyway.
 
I hope to get to as many as possible this year, and possibly enter toward the end of the year to get a taste of the 'pressure' of competition...
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Originally posted by silver silver wrote:

1) HAVE YOU BEEN TO A MATCH?
 
2) HAVE YOU READ THE RULE BOOK?
 
Until you have done both, don't spend your money. I typed that as slow as I could...
 
People don't tell us what game they're shooting...  They ask for advice with conflicting information.  Then other people complain that we respond with crapWhacko  Then other people complain when don't respond at all.Juggle
 
It is not my intention to be rude, but Garbage in = Garbage out.
 
Point taken Sir!
 
I do not intend to chastise anyone for the advice they give. I asked for it, prepared the 'grounds' for questioning as best I could, and fully accept responsibility for the use or disuse of the advice given.
 
So far I have learned about the sweet FN offering that I was not aware of before. So, regardless of anything else, I learned that.
 
Thanks for the disclaimer, and rest assured I will not be back in a month saying "You said to get this and I cannot compete with it now. You suck." That is not me. You don't all know this yet, but you will eventually learn that I am very careful with my money. I am not afraid to spend where needed, but I HATE throwing good money after bad...
 
I hope that is clear. Thanks for asking those questions and 'clearing the air' so to speak.
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Originally posted by silver silver wrote:

When did REMINGTON make a model 70?
 
I believe production ended in the mid seventies or so, but I may be wrong.
 
The model 70 was the basis for the Marine Sniper rifles used by Carlos Hathcock (apologies if spelling is wrong) and the other early 'heroes' of this dangerous game.
 
I ran into similar problems going into gun shops looking for a model 70 Winchester... "70? That sounds like a Ruger number to me..."
 
The "pre-64" models are of particular interest because of the extractor design. I think (but am not sure) this extractor continued on the 'national match' versions up until the end.
 
Anyway, if my information is incorrect, please correct it for everyones benefit.
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