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In a Pinch. BAD NEWS Need Advice and Input

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/06/2011 at 19:00
338LAPUASLAP View Drop Down
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Scope Swapper

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Some of you might remember me looking for new window recommendations and getting a new roof.
 
Long story short. 
 
Got New Roof went with Owens Corning Premium Duration Shingles with a Platinum Contractor So I get a 50 Yr warranty (25 yr Labor - installation, non Pro-rated Materials and Install)
 
Went with Marvin Infinity Windows (Installed by Marvin Rep Direct Lifetime warranty Or 50yr parts and Labor).
 
The first day the window guy shows up he pulls the first window and just imediately quit he got me on the phone and I came home to find out why my windows had failed.
 
BAD NEWS...
 
Windows were Wood, I thought I neglected them (and did) but that is not why they failed.
 
Come to find out the house we bought was built in 1994 and the contractor used:
 
1.  Celotex (or just the old Black Cardbaord, particle board wall board (fiber board) instead of OSB, He did not even use OSB in the corners and it passed inspection.
 
2. R-3 insulation, nothing at all to it it is yellow but looks like cotton candy packed to a pancake.
 
They DID NOT USE: House wrap of any kind.
 
Here is what happened the Vinyl siding had water behind it in every corner of the house and around every window.  It had not rained in 13 or 14 days and had not had much temp drop at all from morning to night
 
The contractor is suggesting he remove the Celotex, Replace with OSB put in proper insulation, wrap the entire house with FANFOLD and TYVEK, FLASH all the Windows and Penetrations and start from scratch he will try to reuse the siding if he can.  He is suggesting I buy the materials pay him $6-10k for roughly 24 square depending on how you look at it. 
 
He started with one window opening and had to replace most of the wood that was the structure of under the window. He will do this for time and materials.
 
Long story short, I need to know what you guys think.  I myself have seen 3 sides of the house now and have witnessed the poking of a finger through all the Celotex and through all of the window frames and openings. 
 
YES, I had the house inspected before I bought it.
 
No, They did not find anything wrong from the outside or inside and there was nothing stated on the report of inspection about water damage, Nor have I seen any water on the inside of the house less the windows that rotted away.
 
 
One question why would the water travel from the bottom of the windows up???  Or the bottom of the windows had the Celotex and it kinda wicked or sponged upwards and wiped out the bottom of all the windows.
 
No, the insurance does not cover workmanship, defects, wood rott or mold, this is straight up out of my already emptied pockets...
 
I am not joking when I say this.  I will be dumping some scopes to the sample list un doubtedly.
 
 
 
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/06/2011 at 19:02
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The Celotex that is present looks like a sweated through black shirt it has sweat stains so to speak and it kinda looks like tree rings you can see it has been wet maybe 50+ times.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/06/2011 at 20:01
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My first question
 What state are you in? Do you get a lot of rain and or ground water.
 
 Is this a crawl space house? This is a common problem in crawl space houses that many do not have proper drainage away from the house. The house Will collect water in the crawl space and the moisture will condense and collect behind the siding. This is more relevant is colder areas. In my area wrapping a house was not common practice until after 2005 in this region. They started putting a plastic wrap on some houses in the early 90's but quickly discontinued. A sealed house will sweat and cause mold. It also increases the risk from toxic fumes. Tyvex did not come into common use  for several years. It will restrict airflow but still allow the house to breath. Allowing the escape of moisture ,formaldehyde, CO2, Carbon monoxide, and other gases. Building codes have made great strides in the last 30 years. The problem lies in the lack of code enforcement. There is still more areas that have lax to no enforcement.
Moisture is a house killer. Achieving the balance of keeping it out and at the same time letting it escape.
 If you lived in Oklahoma putting 50 year shingles on a house is a complete waste of money. Within 10 years the large baseball and softball sized hail will beat any roof to pieces. Even the steel roofs.
 
I believe that OSB in the corners did not become code until after 2002.After the 1999 F 5 tornado's in Oklahoma city, Oklahoma State University studied why so many homes failed. They built walls and shot them with debris from air cannons. This study prompted the code changes in 2002.


Edited by 3_tens - November/06/2011 at 20:15
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/06/2011 at 21:29
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I feel for you. That is some serious crap to have to deal with. We've had a few issues with the house we bought and that's even knowing the contractor who built it is a pretty decent type. Sounds like someone really cut some corners there. I wish I knew more to give you reliable advice. We had to replace drywall inside our bathroom (and the insulation) after the shower above leaked down the wall. It had an interior vapor barrier so we did that again and that jibed with what I read regarding northern climates and a bathroom with an automatically activated fan. I was amazed how much water had wicked into to the insulation and it soaked the waferboard in the exterior wall. We let it dry from Feb. to Aug. so I knew it was bone dry before sealing everything back up.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/06/2011 at 21:41
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I feel your pain the house im in I have had to have the roof replaced the siding replaced the flooring replaced the doors replaced. The general contractor who built it used crap dressed it up and make a fortune.  You might want to pay an attorney for an hour of his advise to find out if you have any recourse legally.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/07/2011 at 06:53
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Originally posted by Urimaginaryfrnd Urimaginaryfrnd wrote:

I feel your pain the house im in I have had to have the roof replaced the siding replaced the flooring replaced the doors replaced. The general contractor who built it used crap dressed it up and make a fortune.  You might want to pay an attorney for an hour of his advise to find out if you have any recourse legally.
 
Money well spent.  There could be several laws that protect you.  Liability could placed upon the inspector in which case he may have a bond or insurance to cover such situations.    If the prior owners did not disclose known damage they could be liable.  Your states realestate laws may afford you protection.
 
One option you could use if you have to cover the expenses is to leverage your mortage company.  You may be able to negotiate getting your mortage rewritten and pulling out some of your down payment/equity  IF under current market conditions you have any.  Maybe a small second loan with a very very low interest.  They will even break their % rules to loan you more money. The downside to that is you will have no value in the home and could be stuck in it being upside down for years to come.
 
No financial institutions want homes back especially one that requires 1000's of dollars in repairs.  So they have an incentive to work with you.  They know you could just walk away from the home and dump it on them.  Then they have to repair it and eat the cost.  Of course you'd be filing bankruptcy and smearing your credit for a number of years.
 
Call some buddies and relatives over and beg the carpenter to work with you.  Offer to strip the house and provide all the pizza/beer soaked buddy labor you can summon.  Pay him his hours and use his knowledge and you fill in 90% of the labor.  Go buy some cheap halogen lights so you can work till midnight.  I'm saying this of course from my own past experiences..... painful as they were.
 
 


Edited by scooter65 - November/07/2011 at 06:56
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/07/2011 at 19:56
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Weather is typical Ohio, Michigan weather the joke is if you don't like the weather just wait till tomorrow.  We have had snow and it has been 70' degrees later in the day.  We get lots of rain, and snow...
Ok sorry to not check back here was kinda looking from affar on the damages outside.
 
The builder is out of business he went under for not meeting code and not giving warranty for two years building substandard housing and taking money without completing the jobs he had or houses he was suppose to build. The banks persued him and so did the locals through suit after suit I was told he is in another country.
 
I talked to an inspector he was well aware of our neighborhood and our builder they say that nothing can be done.
 
I am not really mad at the inspector as he couldn't know but I just wish he did look and could have forwarned us.
 
Long story short. We have a basement 8 foot ceilings no water issues perfectly dry I run a humidstat year round and have reheat throughout our house duct work.
 
Today  I was astonished to watch them tear another side off the house get it OSB'd and Fanfolded.
 
I was told both the fanfold and Tyvek will allow the house to breath and act more as a wind barrier and sorta insulation(the fanfold) but they are microscopically permeable or will allow the moisture and hummidty from any water that penetrates it and will breath.
 
Thank you for your direction on this fellas again sorry to not be on till PM I will probably be spending most tomorrow outside as well The contractor and I have worked a little deal out he is allowing me to price hunt and negotiate with our local supply houses and he is giving me his "black book" to price shop his vendors then I am using my Credit Card and will pay him for his hours and his Employees hours he is being very fair (that and he knows he has work for the next week).
 
As far as the PM's go thank you again I will try to respond in tomorrow.
 
I have had a lot on my plate.
 
I am starting to feel a little bit better about this.
 
Any comments as to .040 or .043 Vinyl I was given an option the cost is roughly $20+ a square or in my case $650 difference.
 
I was going to go thicker but does it really benefit me?
 
Also any thoughts about the Soffits or Gutters any preferences and why???
 
What do I need to be looking for as far as shortcuts.  I feel good about the builder but do not want to be tricked into any false security.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by 338LAPUASLAP - November/07/2011 at 20:04
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2011 at 20:35
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OK, so a little update.
 
I now have had my house weather ready we did fanfold and tyvek (actual tyvek), did invisivent soffits and had the seems taped and properly sealed. 
 
I do not have any siding yet but it will come soon.
 
I have another question, we roughly have a little deck off our house it is wood, she wanted to paint it brown so we did. 
 
Long story short the brown on the deck is too hot in the summertime and they have to remove some of it to get at the siding.  The question is this. 
 
Do you guys have any suggestions as to if I should go plastic or anything???
 
I was told plastic could be hotter, I was also told it is very slippery when wet or when it has frost on it.
 
My concerns are that it could be a bad move vs. just sanding it all down and just replacing the boards they tear up by the house to get at the siding.
 
Please any thoughts or suggestions.
 
Sorry to not get to calling, I got a little busy ran out of town for a few unexpected days.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/13/2011 at 22:47
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I've never been to (pardon the pun) hot on the plastic style decking. The stuff I've experienced seems to warp and/or get really hot...well, some of this was in Missouri in August. But I've been out on a deck I rebuilt using fir when it was 105 and I was barefoot. It was far more tolerable. Instead of stain, I used some stuff friends of ours applied ONCE on a deck 12 years earlier. It's called Lifetime Wood Treatment (http://www.valhalco.com/) and is not a stain. Rather it is a mineral-based penetrant that you brush on to the wood and it preserves it. On our deck and theirs, the wood weathered to a grayish-brown and stayed that way, even with ice and snow on it for months. We moved out of that house last year, but the deck still looked like new after five years.

The only downside was the home inspector flagged it for needing staining and I had to dig out the receipts and print out all the website info to show that it was actually treated and likely to last longer than any stain treatment. Fortunately, the new owner was smarter than he was and accepted that...although she sure drove a dam* hard bargain on everything else. (Maybe I should have found a dumb*** who likes staining decks every summer).
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/14/2011 at 07:04
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hardy plank is a better choice than vinyl its concrete based product.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/14/2011 at 07:34
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I am not a fan of the "plastic" products, snow and ice will cause them to warp... have to be cleaned regularly to prevent.  Real wood, sealed, is much more resistant. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/14/2011 at 08:36
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The advantage to plastic decking (Trex deck and variants) is the ease of care.  Basically put it down and don't worry about it.  The newer stuff doesn't fade like the original, or I should say, not as bad or as fast.  I worked with it for six+ years in the lumber yard I was at.  Downside, is that you have to have more supports, it costs, more, can be hotter depending on color, and does indeed get very slippery when wet or snow.  Pain in the butt to stack and build units out of when it is full of ice.

I would go with a good wood, and then keep it sealed.  Yes it is a pain, but if you keep up on it, it looks better, isn't as slippery, easier to build and work with.  Redwood is a good choice, but I prefer Mangaris myself for looks and durability.  Just costs more.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2011 at 18:21
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House Update.

 
We did get approved from a conventional bank on an equity line at 3.75%  $40k.
 
We now have a almost new construction home...

***that is still not quite finished 3 sides are done (flashed, fan-folded, tyvek, flashed and sided). We have been getting bad news after bad news, back patio door was never wrapped or weatherproofed we had insulation and a drop ceiling in place in the basement directly below the patio door to not know that we had major issues from years of water damage that was probably never even known by the original homeownder years 3 owners ago...we also had a run in with an area that was around the chimney that had R-38 insulation stuffed around it which was causing us condensation in the winter due to the extreme tempreature differences of the Fireplace and the vaulted or cathedral (don't know which one Paint, Drywall, 2x8, r-38 without Vent, now replaced with a pan vent or pillow vent, then OSB, roof).

 
Long, Long, Long story short it has been a really really wet November and December in our area allowing for no more than 2 days of work in a row which sucks in a construction project of this type.  We are getting it done but slowly.  I am still working 50+ hrs and trying my best to pitch in but the rain and snow is just killing the time frame as well as the builders availability while he installs windows as his normal "job"...

I am a little hesitant to post public pictures but just imagine seeing a house being built the frame at points in this process you could see our furniture through the walls of our house they had to pull the siding the Celotex, the Insulation and the Dry Wall....



Edited by 338LAPUASLAP - December/17/2011 at 18:24
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Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:

 
 
Long story short. We have a basement 8 foot ceilings no water issues perfectly dry I run a humidstat year round and have reheat throughout our house duct work.
 
 
 
Also any thoughts about the Soffits or Gutters any preferences and why???
 
What do I need to be looking for as far as shortcuts.  I feel good about the builder but do not want to be tricked into any false security.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Famous last words they found water damage in the basement under the Patio Door...
 
Also we do not have GUTTERs up yet.
 
Any suggestions.


Edited by 338LAPUASLAP - December/17/2011 at 18:44
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2011 at 22:04
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Gutters with gutter glove to prevent clogging.  Make sure you have the gutter drainage routed well away from your house.  

If you have basement leakage issues, that is a real problem.  Would have to have more details to make a real assessment... I was in the construction trades for many years before finally going to a "gubment job".  Iron worker's helper, Iron worker, pipefitter's helper, carpenter's helper, bricklayer's helper, heavy equipment operator (International Union of Operating Engineers)... 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2011 at 23:08
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At my grandmas house we had to dig around the foundations and tar to keep the water out. As for gutter use long screws insted of nails. It helps in the long run. Also check to see if the installer put a thin layer of tar inside the gutter to keep the rust out from the debris that sit in the gutter.
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