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If your life depended on it !?!?!

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silver View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2007 at 17:36

Lucznik,

 

Way back when... I lived on a farm and agreed with you.  In fact my first hand gun was 686 for many of the same reasons you cited. 

 

Well as a young man I had to move to town to find work. I lived in a nice town and most people did not lock thier doors.  Then I had a guy dealing outside my window   After we got rid of him, I had a drug dealer move in directly up stairs from me.  So yes, answering the door at strange hours at close quarters does change your paradigm.

 

Out on the farm area now many of the thieves work in a pair so that they can carry off larger more valuable things and faster. YMMV

 

As note I helped RO an even sponcered by the Secret Service for LE Explorer Scouts at our local range.  They provided about 50 686s for us to use.  We have lots of 148 grain wadcuters. Some where after three hundred rounds the L-frame needed a cleaning from the unburned  powder.  We have a few lock up on us. A hotter round would have done better. YMMV

"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

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silver View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2007 at 17:59
Originally posted by lucznik lucznik wrote:

 

 

Silver, I think you and I just look at this issue from a different paradigm.  You seem more focussed on LE/military-styled tactics (outflanking, shooting on the move, firepower, multiple-threat engagment, etc.)  While very popular in firearms training circles and to some very interesting, these are based on scenarios that are unlikely to be encountered by a civilian like myself.  In fact, in all my reading (and I do a fair amount,) I have never come across an account where a civilian had to deal with those kinds of issues.  In fact, I am unaware of any time when a civilian even had to do a single "tactical reload."  Oh, I'm sure it's happened sometime but, the point is that it's awfully rare. (Otherwise the NRA would be loudly and zealously using such events as further proof that everyone needs a gun.) That stuff is mostly fodder for the movies, not real life.

 

 

My last close call had a van load of recent arrived workers want my delivery truck.  They had their van side ways on a bridge and were trying to stop traffic.  They had passed me then slowed down a couple of times while looking the truck over.  "A V-8 beats a .45" Louis Awerbuck. I droped it a gear and made a round them because there was not any traffic in the other lane.  Yep, that changes your paradigm...

 

When I was 14, people did an armed robbery a few miles away.  They thought that they were raiding a floating card game.  Instead the people were a family who were starting an Ad company who lived in a trailer, but drove Buicks to impress the clients.  Five people died, all but the mom who was wearing a wig.  They thought that they had blown a part of her head off.  So that set off the largest man hunt since the depression and John Dillinger (one of John Dillingers hidouts was also in our neighborhood). Then in the middle of all that somebody tried to kick in the people next to us door in.  Yes, that changes your paradigm...

 

YMMV 

"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

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lucznik View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucznik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2007 at 18:40

I don't doubt your experiences silver but, all you've really done is to emphasize the need to be armed (and aware.)  As far as I can tell from the details you have shared, none of these experiences illustrates the need for more than the 5-6 rounds available in a small revolver.

 

Drug dealer on corner = 1 round expended with 4 remaining

Drug dealer upstairs = 1 round expended with now 3 remaining

Pair of bandits carting off with heavier stuff = 2 rounds expended with now 1 more remaining.

Group of "recently arrived 'workers'" = Utilized V8 power, no rounds expended, still 1 remaining.

 

Heck, I've just taken care of your first four scenarios and haven't had to reload yet.

 

You didn't say how many perpetrators were involved in the ad company murders so; I don't know if I should have reloaded or not after the last incident. 

 

Of course, I'm being facetious. (I would have reloaded after each one of them. )

 

I know of a guy who claims that his personal daily "defensive" battery consists of two full size Glock 21's stuffed with high capacity (13 round) magazines. He also claims to carry two full hi-cap reloads for EACH gun. That comes to a total of 80 rounds of .45 ACP that this guy feels he needs to carry "just in case."

 

Of course, I pity this guy if he ever uses those guns to hurt/kill anyone and then gets me as one of his jurors. I am as firm a believer in the right to keep and bear (and use) arms as anyone I know but, he would have a hard "row to hoe" to convince me that he was carrying a legitimate defensive battery as opposed to having gone out looking for an opportunity to engage in a protracted firefight.

 

I'm not saying you're like this guy but, I am suggesting that the average "enthusiast" tends to get carried away with all the "tactical" stuff available and fails to understand that far less is needed to handle almost all defensive tactical scenarios. 

 

 



Edited by lucznik
What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steelbenz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2007 at 21:58

Guys,

   You two sound like old ladies arguing over who makes the best pie.  I've owned and shot a Jarvis built 686,  (Had it done when he was still working out of is house garage) wouldn't even think about carrying that thing around with me.  I've had a couple of series 70 Gold Cups, Glock 23 shot bulleye, pin matches, ipsc, have had bad dudes on my door step, when they got the dead bolt unlocked I open the door the rest of the way for them. The .45 in my hands cured the problem.  The sheriff didn't like it much, but at that point I didn't care what he thought!!! My wife was scared out of her wits with 5 bikers trying to get in. Had one of them done something stupid all 5 would have died seconds later.  The only good gun is one you can use, wheel gun, or auto it makes no difference. are you able to hit what your aiming at?  and are you ready to use it.  My wife can out shoot most cops in this state, but in a tight, I worry. Your best weapon sits between your right and left ears.  If you use that first you might not need the second one. You both make good points. You only really need to be able to protect yourself for about 2 min. realistically. Your going to win or loose it that time frame. Don't belive me, think about it, How many shootouts do you see on TV (real life not fairy tales) I can only think of one. "Glendale" whats the odds that happening in my living room?  about the same as a UFO landing in the same spot. Every other civilian or law enforcement shooting that I know of is under 2 min.  Realistically knockdown power is whats need, If the weapon your shooting can't put him down, it doesn't really matter how many times you hit'em. Read the La salle case. Thats why I don't like a 9mm. Lots of killing power, squat in knockdown.  OK I'm done with my rant.  

"Don't argue with a fool! From a distance you can't really tell who's who!"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike McDonald Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2007 at 20:26

I'm sure eventually Jeff Cooper will  rise from the dead and chime in here.........................

 

9mm-vs-45-vs-wheelguns Oh My!

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rootmanslim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2007 at 22:51
9mm??? Cooper didn't even consider that a firearm. Here's classic Cooper "I suppose there is a reason for these 40 caliber pistols. When promoting the Bren Ten, the purpose was increased power and effective range, but I have since discovered that excess power seems difficult to control for many people, and excess range is irrelevant to the pistol situation. Besides, the hot ten cartridge is no longer with us. We have the 45, which is generally a better round, so I see no need for the 40, except as a sales item."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/06/2007 at 17:17

Originally posted by rootmanslim rootmanslim wrote:

9mm??? Cooper didn't even consider that a firearm. Here's classic Cooper "I suppose there is a reason for these 40 caliber pistols. When promoting the Bren Ten, the purpose was increased power and effective range, but I have since discovered that excess power seems difficult to control for many people, and excess range is irrelevant to the pistol situation. Besides, the hot ten cartridge is no longer with us. We have the 45, which is generally a better round, so I see no need for the 40, except as a sales item."

 

 

Thus explains El Jeffes love of the the .38 super...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigdaddy0381 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/02/2007 at 11:38

Rem 870 with short barrle 00 3inch buck shot.

 

First grab gun then phone hit 911 lay phone down .find an semi ( to keep me hiding sorta) open place to see the majority of your house.

then just see what happens.

 

Don't ever turn the lights on.If you do you should send the up a flare at the same time.

 

 

Big

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smitty47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/02/2007 at 12:07

Big daddy raises an excellent point... along the lines of using your head before you use your weapon.

I am a firm beleiver that any person has an intrinsic right to defend themselves, their family, and property against a malicious intruder. However, the laws in places like here (Cal) are stacked in your adversary's favor.

 

According to statute, a person is allowed to use force UP TO the force or threat of force being used against them. Translation: One is just in shooting and killing only if the imminent danger of their own (or their family's) death is apparent. To guard yourself against a knockdown, dragout, one word against another spewfest in the courst after teh fact, it is prudent advice to find barricade for yourself and family, dial 911 and leave the call active and close to you while you EXPLICITLY verbalize that the intruder either leave or be dispatched accordingly.

 

What happens after that point is up to the intruder and completely justifiable. After all, a father or motehr in jail will be of little more use to their family than they will be dead.

 

This, of course, assumes a single intruder (possibly 2) and assumes that you have the advantage of barricade, or at least seeking cover while dialing. If that is not available... so be it... shoot to kill and sort it out later.

 

That said, I go for my Kimber 1911. With a trained operator behind the trigger, it will dispatch the unwelcome at least as efficiently as a 12ga, while being less likely to be grabbed and taken away rounding a corner as it can be kept closer to the body.

 

In a protracted situation with multiple threats (i.e. homeland invasion scenario, however unlikely) my one go-to would be a 6.5 Grendel AR equipped with a 2.5-10 or 1.5-6 (ish) optic and back up BUIS. Remember, in this type of situation, you will need a game-getter in addition to a defensive weapon. That, IMO, would be the vest do-it-all candidate.

Exterior Ballistics held equal, he who shoots last shoots best (or just had better optics)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigdaddy0381 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/02/2007 at 12:21

yes always plane for the worst and except nothing but the best..

 

I have tought about if this happened to me ever since i built my house.

 

 1st If i just started shooting i would blast thru the wall of one of my kidds room.I wouldn't never do that my life would go first before that happened.

2nd it will give you time to see if there is one 2 or maybe even 3. 

3rd if you waint and let it play out a little more u might be able to get away with a wounding shot.

4th  if you lay the phone down with out saying anything you will see a great responce time.and it might just record what happens for later use in cout.

5th and as always like my uncle(x military cook lol) say a dead man can't talk and i have a none regersterd gun some where.

 

I know this is a big issue this day and time.I hope this might help some.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonbravado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/02/2007 at 12:22

i like my odds w/ my rem 1100 (5 buckshot) and the home court advantage..........

 

i pitty the fool......

 

but if the adversary is of the weaker nature.......a shot from my single shot 16 guage sounds like the end of the world to

anything at the business end of it.

 

J

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote anweis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/02/2007 at 14:49

A Rem 870 with short barrel and buckshot for home. 

AK for out. Scope - nyet. Bayonet - Yes.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Narrow Gap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/02/2007 at 16:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/03/2007 at 20:41
Originally posted by Bigdaddy0381 Bigdaddy0381 wrote:

yes always plane for the worst and except nothing but the best..

 

I have tought about if this happened to me ever since i built my house.

 

 1st If i just started shooting i would blast thru the wall of one of my kids room.I wouldn't never do that my life would go first before that happened.

 

*several good points deleted so that they may be focused on by themselves*

 

 

Have you thought about hardening the walls?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigdaddy0381 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/05/2007 at 06:40

 

Silver wrote

Have you thought about hardening the walls?

 

Silver,

that could be an option.But it is on the 2nd floor and if i went and starte hardening the walls (with seel and concreat) then everyone would have think i fliped my lid.but i would have one sterdy house well maybe a (fort) at that point

 

So i just got an alarm instead.

Big


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/05/2007 at 09:26

 

 

Big Daddy,

 

How about this instead... A bookshelf along a good part of the wall. It would only need to go up to about five feet, that would hide the sheet of 1/4"steel  Or thick tile backer board.  Maybe a some Advantek(sp) metal lathe, thin set mortar and tiles or fake stone.  You can fill the fill the walls with pea gravel, but that makes for a lot of extra weight.  You could just pick out a part of the wall and put some patio blocks under the sheet rock.

 

Hey, you were trying to add some outlets and tore up the sheet rock fishing the wires...It was faster and cheaper just to tear it all out and start over... Tell the wife she gets new paint and new carpet

 

While it is best to stop the projectile cold, if you can get it velocity cut down to where it does not penatrate the skin you have made goal.  Over the years of playing around with stuff for years I can tell you that even a thin sheet of soft metal, will drastically cut the amount of damage a projectile do.  Thin layers of metal layered to make up the same thickness as sheet can work even better in some cases.

 

Once you break up the bullet some then it stops much easier.  Even plain fiberglass insulation used for noise control helps slow bullets.  Compressed fiberglass with resin has been used to help armor things like judge's stand in court rooms.

 

Get some scrapes from a job site or lumber yard and play around.  Make some "mini" walls and shoot them.  BTW Glue lams do not stop bullets



Edited by silver
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigdaddy0381 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/05/2007 at 10:09

Silver,

 

i though about walpapering the up stairs with kevlar.The cost was a little but much for me.

I have actually thought of pouring sand in the walls but then the weight would be to much.Then the 2nd florr would become the 1st floor.my wife dose want a one level but i don't think she would want it on her car.Then she would want to drive my monster truck whitch she say i can't see out of.I don't think i like that much ether.

 

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/05/2007 at 10:49

 

 

Big Daddy,

 

What about just focusing on some choke points instead of the whole up stairs?  One of my friends has a designated dry fire spot that just happens to be in the those choke points he need to control. 

 

One of my friends installed a light on his stairway that can be easily changed but not shut off.  To help keep his teenagers from sneeking in or out. I have a motion detector night light that could also work for such.

 

Btw things only have to take a couple of shots.



Edited by silver
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigdaddy0381 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/05/2007 at 10:56

Silver,

 

i do have an alarm instaled on ALL windows and doors,But when it gose off you still have the chance of someone running in grabing someone to shout it off.Thats where the inside trickie stuff falls into play.and from my bedroom i can see the only 2 ways in the upstairs.The back door and the stairs comming up.So if i did need to shoot i have a 3x10 or so lead way of an open shot but thats the worst case thing that could happen.I'm slao good at throwing a knife so that might be a thing to looka t also.

 

Reading some of thing i wrote make me seems so mean and wiked,but it's a fact of life we all have got to look at.

 

Big

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longbow308 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/08/2007 at 17:51


45acp Kimber custom 2 with stright 8 night sights
230 gr. +p hollow point


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