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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/19/2011 at 23:39
coldhunt View Drop Down
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I just bought an HS 300wsm, and am lost on optics. The more I learn the less I feel I know.
I am looking at buying a swaro 6 in 2-12 or 2.5-15. If I do this the rangefinder will be a cheapie. Or I buy a burris 2-12, and a very good range finder. This rig will have to be everything for me in big game. I want lots of FOV, in the bush, more so for the big cats, and bears. I also want to have the confidence of holding zero when I power up for long shots, this is where I realy wonder about FFP vs SFP. I also am a bit concerned about the lack of Parallax adjustment on both of the 2-12. I have read some of the other posts and am sold on the Swaro as one of the best for hunting, but the funds will not let me have everything. Will I be sacrificing longer range accuracy if I go to the burris? I know the glass isn't as good, but I won't be taking any 500yd shots in the low light? I have been tossing this around for a month, and am no further ahead.
 
I am brand new here, and a friend suggested this sight as the place to ask the optics questions. All opinions would be appreciated.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2011 at 06:14
medic52 View Drop Down
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I went with a Burris Euro Diamond 3x12x50 for my 300 win mag. Couldn't beat the price on the samplelist here......

Edited by medic52 - March/20/2011 at 06:15
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2011 at 11:54
coldhunt View Drop Down
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Thanks medic I did look at that scope, but I like the lower power setting, with the large FOV, for the better tracking in heavy bush. I hope a few more people give their opinion, but in the meantime I will keep reading other posts in here. If I knew that the Burris would perform well on both ends my mind would be made up, but I have not read any real owner reviews that are in any depth about the higher end clarity, zero, and parralax. The 6x zoom has been of great interest due to the obvious short and longer range abilities, but I keep thinking that unless I go high end I will be sacraficing abilities somewhere. I would think that if they had no inherent problems that everyone would be building 6x units for hunting. Maybe I am wrong.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2011 at 12:46
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The Z-6 would be a great choice IMO. It has a large FOV with 2 @ the bottom end, and 12 @ the top end is more than adequate for your specified ranges. I'm not a big Burris fan and their CS has apparently had some "issues" of late. More companies (even Loopie I hear) will be jumping on the 6X bandwagon to be sure. The lack of parallax adjustment is a concern to some, but I don't feel a major one with the Swaro Z-6. I have three Swaro units (but not the Z-6), and they have performed wonderfully. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2011 at 13:09
coldhunt View Drop Down
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I know for what I want the z6 is the one. Maybe I should just save my pennies and buy a RF
later. I have heard mixed reviews on Burris CS, and I hate to say it but I feel Leupold is over priced when compared, and rely alot on their name. I know their CS is very good. Where I hunt I can find everything from dense bush to nice 200 to 300 yd fields, and some realy nice spots for spotting out to over 750yds, not that I would even consider a shot that far with my current abilities. The other issue is cold weather up here. Maybe I am asking too much from a mid priced scope such as a burris. At one of the local shops here the guy told me to expect the 6x loopy to be in the swaro price range, in that case I know which one I would choose before even looking thru the Leupold, just because of my own bias.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2011 at 14:24
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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F Burris their customer service sucks,  Comparing a Burris to a Swarovski is like comparing a Fiat to a Ferrari. There are other choices that also make sense.
Trijicon 2.5-10x56 Accu-Point 30mm Rifle Scope Mil-Dot Crosshair w/ Green Dot Trijicon 2.5-10x56 Accu-Point 30mm Rifle Scope
Stock # - TR222G
  • Matte
  • Mil-Dot Crosshair w/ Green Dot
  • 30mm
$870.95
Trijicon 2.5-10x56 Accu-Point 30mm Rifle Scope Red Triangle Trijicon 2.5-10x56 Accu-Point 30mm Rifle Scope
Stock # - TR22R
  • Matte
  • Red Triangle
  • 30mm
$870.95
Wouldn't it be nice to be able to see your reticle in low light?  If you are primarily hunting brush use the post if you are shooting longer distances use the mildot.
 
MILDOT:
RANGEFINDER DEER 18 inch brisket to backbone deer at 200 yds is 2.5mil at 250 yds is 2 mil at 333 ydsit is 1.5 mil  at 400 yds it is 1.25 mil and at 500 yds is 1 mil  at 666yds is .75mil
 
RANGEFINDER ELK 24inch brisket to backbone elk at 200 yds is 3mil  at 250 yds is 2.5mil at 300yds is 2 mil  at 350 yds is 1.75 mil  at400 yds is 1.5 mil  at 488 yds is 1.25mil  at 610 yds is 1mil
 
TRAJECTORY COMPENSATION 190 gr SMK   2850FPS  300 WSM 100 yd zero  at 200 yds has -0.5 mil drop  at 250 yds has-0.8 mil drop   at300 yds has -1.1 mil drop  ate 350 yds has 1.5 mil drop  at 400 yds has -1.9 mil drop at 450 yds has -2.3 mil drop at 500 yds had -2.7mil drop
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2011 at 15:02
coldhunt View Drop Down
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I wasn't comparing burris to swaro. There is no comparison. I am just beside myself because although I have a decent budget, I just can't buy the swaro I want along with a vg RF. I may have to rethink the huge FOV of 50 to 63' @100yds. I have a Nikon 2.5-10 on an old 30-06, but again I want a bit more power on the top, I am getting weaker eyes. For the money I spent the nikon is OK, and has a decent FOV on low mag, but again I would like more on both ends for this gun. I also prefer a smaller objective 40 to 50 tops, and smaller is better.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2011 at 15:05
coldhunt View Drop Down
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I am happy to hear about the parallax, because I won't be shooting past 600yds ever.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2011 at 15:30
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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More power on the top end can work against you at times because balistic reticles only work at the highest power.  That is not a bad thing on a 2-7 or a 3-9 scope but when the power range is max of 14.5 or higher you can be in real trouble in low light.   How bright a scope is depends on two factors the size of the objective and the power it is set at.  Bright scopes would be 6x42 or 7x50 or 8x56 so the larger the objective the brighter the scope will be.  Better glass also helps but in low light you need to dial down the power.  Only recently did we start to see scopes with a high top end that have a low end power below 4x.   Having a high power is great on a rifle range where you can bench rest the rifle and have all the time in the world but high power is more of a problem if you are trying to hand hold the rifle and shoot quickly.  When hand holding a rifle and shooting quickly illumination is a huge help as it naturally draws the eye onto the target (bindon aiming concept - both eyes open) Trijicon does a really fine job of taking advantage of this concept. There are several scopes in their Accupoint line.  The only 56mm scope I would consider for hunting is their 2.5-10x56 as I prefer a 42 to 50 mm objective but I see a huge difference between the field of view of the 2.5 as compared to that of their 3-9x40.   I have several of their scopes and one is a 1.5x fixed power compact ACOG and I am sub moa at 300 yds with that scope so if you need wide field of view and the ability to be fast and deadly in brush that leaves me thinking you should consider one of the illuminated Accupoints. The fact that you may want to make a 300 or so yd shot tells me that it would be nice to have at least 10x on the high end but if you are not stretching the distance out to 600 + you dont really need a top end like 16 to 20x.  What you do need is a good low end and the ability to get on target quickly.
If you used a Federal Premium 180 gr nosler partition and a one hundred yard zero you could aim dead on from 0 to 200 yds and hold 4 inches over the back at 300 yds and kill them dead every shot - no special formula.  
Load No
Caliber
50 Y
100 Y
200 Y
300 Y
P300WSMB
300 Win. Short Magnum
-0.2
-3.0
-11.2
Trijicon 1-4x24 Accu-Point 30mm Rifle Scope German #4 Crosshair w/ Green Dot Trijicon 1-4x24 Accu-Point 30mm Rifle Scope
Stock # - TR243G
  • Matte
  • German #4 Crosshair w/ Green Dot
  • 30mm
$844.95
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2011 at 15:41
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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Swarovski 1.7-10x42 Z6 30mm Riflescope Swarovski 1.7-10x42 Z6 30mm Riflescope
Stock # - SWA59210
  • Matte
  • Plex
  • 30mm
  • Ballistic Turret
$1,848.95
Swarovski 1.7-10x42 Z6i 30mm Riflescope Swarovski 1.7-10x42 Z6i 30mm Riflescope
Stock # - SWA59237
  • Matte
  • Illuminated 4A
  • 30mm
  • Ballistic Turret
$2,428.95
No doubt about it these are great scopes If the choice was go with a top end scope VS sacrifice scope quality to have a rangfinder also I'd do the great scope this year and hope for a rangfinder next year.  Swarovski is definately top of the line but Trijicon is dam nice glass and the best illumination system out there.

Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - March/20/2011 at 15:42
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2011 at 16:35
coldhunt View Drop Down
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That is just it, I want the Big FOV, and I would like to comefortably take that 500yd shot, during daylight with proper support. This is why I like the 2-12. I have heard good things about Trijicon, and I realy like the ilumination. Dialing back down to 6 at dusk is not a problem because I wouldn't take the 500 yd shot at dark anyway. As for a 56 obj, that is to big for my liking. As for Leupold I was not trying to bash them, I just don't prefer them. I may have to do
some thinking about my long range expectations, and maybe more important the FOV, and an ultra low range of 2. It is the old cake and eat it to thing, high end 2-12 with top notch mounts, and a high end RF, all for under $2500, It just won't happen.
 
I guess I was just kind of hoping I would here some good things about the Burris as being a very decent mid priced product, but that just isn't happening.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2011 at 17:07
stickbow46 View Drop Down
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swfa Sample list,Swaro Z6 1-6x24 @$1299.95..DemoA
 
Leica CRF 1000  7x24 @ $599
 
total=$1899.95 with enough left over for a high end set of rings & a rail!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2011 at 19:51
coldhunt View Drop Down
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That is great, but unfortunatly I am in Canada, and up here things are a bit more expensive. The 1-6 is not quite what I had in mind anyway for longer range. I think I may see what I can find in the 3-12 range hopefuly with about a FOV of 40' + on low setting. With an obj in the 40 range. I don't hunt past legal time so I don't need a 56 obj. If I had the extra to spend it would be the z6 Zwaro 2-12, or 2.5-15 , and a Zeiss RF, with a great mount system, but $2500 is on my outer edge for everything.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2011 at 21:12
WYcoyote View Drop Down
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Originally posted by coldhunt coldhunt wrote:

 
I guess I was just kind of hoping I would here some good things about the Burris as being a very decent mid priced product, but that just isn't happening.
 
It is now.
I have 3 Burris scopes, they have been bright, clear and nearly trouble free and when the Electro- Dot reticle gave me some problems the customer service was great. I had it back in two weeks no questions asked. The models I have are two Signatures (3-9x) with the E-dot and one Signature Select (3-12x)
From what you say your needs are I think the Six X, with or without a illum reticle, would be a good match.
 
 
 


Edited by WYcoyote - March/20/2011 at 21:15
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/20/2011 at 23:23
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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I really think you will have to pick either wide field of view or long range as the primary focus once you do that you can make some decisions on what to go with.  If most of your hunting is close in under 200 yds and you need fast target acquisition  I would certainly not rule out the 2.5-10x56 Trijicon.  I know I dont really like a 56 mm objective either but even at 10x it gives you a 5.6mm exit eye pupil which is really pretty bright 7mm being the max but as you get older your eye pupil doesnt dialate as much as a young man.  Remember that 10x at 1000 yds is like open sights at 100 yds so at 500 yds 10x can still be quite workable for hunting but not ideal for benchrest. 
As far a Swarovski if you sacrifice illumination you can get top end glass plus your rangefinder and be in budget.
Swarovski 3.5-18x44 Z5 Riflescope Plex Swarovski 3.5-18x44 Z5 Riflescope
Stock # - SWA59760
  • Matte
  • Plex
  • 1"
  • Ballistic Turret
  • Side Focus
$1,548.95
Swarovski 1.7-10x42 Z6 30mm Riflescope Swarovski 1.7-10x42 Z6 30mm Riflescope
Stock # - SWA59210
  • Matte
  • Plex
  • 30mm
  • Ballistic Turret
$1,848.95
Swarovski 2.5-15x44 Z6 30mm Riflescope Plex Swarovski 2.5-15x44 Z6 30mm Riflescope
Stock # - SWA59410
  • Matte
  • Plex
  • 30mm
  • Ballistic Turret
$2,068.95
Nikon 6x21 RifleHunter 1000 Laser Rangefinder Nikon 6x21 RifleHunter 1000 Laser Rangefinder
Stock # - NIK8377
  • Silver
  • Incline/Decline Technology (Up to + 89 Degrees)
$349.95


Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - March/20/2011 at 23:25
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/21/2011 at 08:24
coldhunt View Drop Down
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Thanks for your imput guys, I do apreciate it. Unfortunatly the Swarovski scopes are more money up here for some reason, RF, and mounts are also more money even though our dollar is and has been par for some time. The manufacturers charge the dealers more here for some reason, and that just gets passed on to the end user. If Trijicon had a few more options in obj size, etc I would realy be looking hard. My Nikon which I put on my old gun is a 2.5-10, it's not a bad scope for the money but not what i want for this gun. I do want just a bit more on the top end due to my age starting to be a sight factor. I realy think your right Urimaginaryfrnd. If I want top notch optics I will have to give up something. Wycoyote I am happy to hear that you are happy with your Burris scopes. I think Burris could infact take a big bite in market share with the six x if they were precieved to be better at CS. To me the glass appears to be as good as most others in the price range. Good thing it's only March, but I want to get on it soon because I predict that prices are going to rise on many things due to the Japan crisis, and in this case optics, as so many companies seem to use Japan glass.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/21/2011 at 09:14
Respect Outdoors View Drop Down
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I can promise you, the Burris Eliminator will make your 300 wsm way more valuable to you! I just put one on my Sako A7 and the results are out of this world! I have never shot 500 yards in my life.... EVER and now it's a no brainer. I absolutely love this scope and feel it is the answer to many of my questions. it's about a 800 dollar scope but to be able to range an animal (or Target) out to 6, 700 yards and it do the math for you.... instantly.... all you have to do is put the orange dot where you want the bullet to go and pull the trigger. period. It also compensates for uphill or downhill shooting. I'm telling you the truth. look at this scope. sight it in at 100 yards and let it do the rest! 

just my honest opinion 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/21/2011 at 17:56
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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Burris 4-12x42 Eliminator Laser Rangefinding Rifle Scope Burris 4-12x42 Eliminator Laser Rangefinding Rifle Scope
Stock # - 200112
  • Matte
  • Plex w/ Illuminated 1/3 MOA Dot (Where Bullet will Drop)
  • Ultra Low Mounting System
  • Remote Activation
$899.95
This is the one he's talking about.  Burris top end glass isnt bad I just have had horid luck with their customer service.  
The Sightron SIII line of scopes is quite good glass you might consider those.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/21/2011 at 19:25
coldhunt View Drop Down
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Thanks respect, I realy don't think that I want all them electronics recoiling around. I am even very leary of a battery lit reticle. I think the idea of an RF scope is not bad, but wonder about the longevity. On a brighter note I found a dealer for Swarovski here that is closer to the US prices. Now I just have to talk myself into biting the bullet so to speak. It's just one less hunt,,,,,,,right?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/21/2011 at 20:47
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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One thing that you really need to consider with Swarovski is the thickness of the reticle I find it a tad on the thin side compared to a Kahles and the Kahles is usually less money and almost as good of glass.  If possible you should probably try to look at at least two of the three top end hunting scopes Swarovski Kahles and Zeiss and see what your eye prefers.  Keep in mind that the balistic reticles work at the top power and in low light you will need to dial down power so having a really high magnification can sometimes work against you, but the flip side is that high magnification can be used to evaluate which animal you want or dont want to shoot. So there is a bonus on each end of the choice range.  If possible look at one of the 2.5-10x56 Accupoint Trijicons or the 5-20x50 version.  I have one of the 5-20's and have another on order besides it way less money and having tritium illumination that doesnt have to be turned on can be a good thing.  One of my friends has a lion mounted in his den that came in hunting the hunters at night in camp.  Here is a similar photo.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/21/2011 at 23:11
coldhunt View Drop Down
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That is one of the reasons I wanted the low power and big FOV. We have seen big cats and big bears, as well as moving game in the bush where we hunt. One of my friends got quite shook up from a grizzly last year. He wants to buy a 338 semi now. I saw that picture about a month ago, just a little scary. I think I might go with the ballistic turret, if I buy a swaro, but if not probably the BRH if I can get it, and I wont be shooting far enough in low light that a ballistics reticle will be needed anyway, but again I realy thank you for the help. The food for thought is realy what I need because I want to get it right the first time, and my optics knowledge is realy not that good.
So who builds a great scope in a 2-12 with a 50 mm obj max, and a lit reticle that doesn't need a battery, for $1500 or less?? I guess I better not hold my breath on that one.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/22/2011 at 00:58
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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Trijicon holds the patent on their technology its tritium and fiber optic so its always turned on with no battery to go bad.  The choices you have with them in traditional scopes are  1-4x24 or 3-9x40 or 2.5-10x56  or 5-20x50.  I really think if you can get past the fact that the objective is 56mm by realizing it would be 3mm closer to the barrel and 3mm higher you would be well advised to select that 2.5-10x56 scope.  If you must stay low the 3-9 might work for you I just dont care for it in a side by side comparison with the 2.5-10.  The 1-4 really would not be a long range optic but awesome out to 200 or 300 yds max which is where most of your hunting will be and very compact. The 5-20x50 could work for you and would be better at longer distance due to tactical knobs but limited by having only 50 moa of internal adjustment so about a 600 yd scope, probably in the Post configuration would be best in heavy brush as those work with the bindon aiming concept where the crosshair and mil dot do not.  USMC uses a 4x ACOG for combat 5x is only one power higher and I have hunted with a fixed 6x so it can be done.  I have had a 5-20 with red post and the post can look a bit odd in daylight as the fiber optic runs up the post you really dont notice it on other models but I really think if you looked these over you would want one.  I have a 5-20x50 green mil dot and have ordered a second one.  In heavy brush though the post would be the best choice.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/22/2011 at 04:02
tman1965 View Drop Down
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I'm with WYcoyote, I am a huge Burris fan, and in several years of using their scopes I have never needed to use their CS for any repairs, but have used them for general questions from time to time. they have treated me like gold every time I have ever talked to them.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/22/2011 at 12:42
coldhunt View Drop Down
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Ok here is the dumb question. I know a SFP balistcs reticle only works on full power. Does the zero get affected as well, when dialed back to 5 or 6 or less etc. Or is it just the ballistics settings which will be affected on lower power? As for Burris I am not convinced, I sent them an email asking them a question, on March 14, I have recieved no response. Maybe this is too soon to expect a response, but I think not.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/22/2011 at 13:06
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Just the ballistic settings.  At least that is how they are suppose to work.  Occasionally a few scopes have problems with the zero when changing mag.  But with most decent scopes that is not an issue

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