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I hope I just made a good choice for my glass...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2011 at 12:31
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After debating over the last 2-3 weeks on a scope, I just pulled the trigger on a Bushnell Elite 4200 3-9x40 with Mult-X reticle.

After weighing some other mid-level scope options (Zeiss Conquest, Leupold VX-III, Falcon, etc) I eventually decided on a Bushnell Elite (mostly because the price was right). Plus, all of the reviews seem mostly positive and I primarily plan on using this as a hunting scope for ranges under 500 yards.

I really was planning on a 2.5-2x40, or even a 6-14x40 because this is going on my .308 (FN PBR 18") and I do some 500 yard range practice, but in the end, the lower price of the 3-9x40 won out, since it was about half the price as the next scope I was comparing to. So hopefully, I made a good choice.

How do you feel about 3-9x40 on a .308? Should I have gone for more power?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2011 at 12:32
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Chief Sackscratch

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I use a SS 3-9 on my 308 out to 600 routinly because thats as far as I can shoot at my house now, more than capable of father though.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2011 at 12:37
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What range would you feel comfortable making a shot with that 3-9 scope?

I figure most of my shots for hunting will be 150-250 yds, so this is perfect for that. However, I sometimes shoot paper targets at 500, so I was a bit worried about that...

But this 18" rifle isnt really meant for supper tight groups at long range.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2011 at 12:39
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Chief Sackscratch

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My rifle has a 20" barrel and will hold fine groups.  Barrel length has nothign to do with group "tightness"
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2011 at 13:04
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Optics GrassHopper
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Originally posted by SVT_Tactical SVT_Tactical wrote:

My rifle has a 20" barrel and will hold fine groups.  Barrel length has nothign to do with group "tightness"


I always thought a longer barrel helped better control the propellant to push greater velocities at longer ranges, in effect giving more accuracy for distance shots?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2011 at 13:08
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Barrel length plays some role in FPS but I its not the FPS, or maxing it, that gets you accuracy at extended ranges, some really hot loads may not perform as well as some milder ones. It is all dependent on your gun.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2011 at 13:17
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so what is the relevance of barrel length in regards to accuracy then? i guess im a bit confused, because this goes against everything ive read / been told.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2011 at 13:24
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Every barrel is different, but shorter barrels are stiffer than similarly constructed longer barrels, and can be more accurate as a result.  Barrel length most affects velocity.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2011 at 13:25
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Chief Sackscratch

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In simple terms, the longer the barrel the faster the bullet will be (most of the time) For example two identically loaded rounds are shot from two rifles one with a 18' barrel and the other with a 26' barrel the FPS difference would be say 300 for this example.  One way that helps is the extra 300fps would help the bullet stay supersonic longer making it at a farther distance where the bullet drops below the speed of sound (about 1050FPS) and sometimes will cause the bullet to deviate.  Using a ballistics calculator and playing with the numbers will give you and ideal of the difference.  As far as its  relationship to accuracy, I've seen 16" barrels ring steel at 1000yds, and I've seen 30" do it too. 

Don't let the length get to you, its how you use it!WinkRoll on Floor Laughing(i couldnt' resist)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2011 at 14:01
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Originally posted by SVT_Tactical SVT_Tactical wrote:

In simple terms, the longer the barrel the faster the bullet will be (most of the time) For example two identically loaded rounds are shot from two rifles one with a 18' barrel and the other with a 26' barrel the FPS difference would be say 300 for this example.  One way that helps is the extra 300fps would help the bullet stay supersonic longer making it at a farther distance where the bullet drops below the speed of sound (about 1050FPS) and sometimes will cause the bullet to deviate.  Using a ballistics calculator and playing with the numbers will give you and ideal of the difference.  As far as its  relationship to accuracy, I've seen 16" barrels ring steel at 1000yds, and I've seen 30" do it too. 

Don't let the length get to you, its how you use it!WinkRoll on Floor Laughing(i couldnt' resist)

I know you can compensate for bullet drop, but once it drops subsonic, it might deviate like you said.

So isn't this essentially saying that a longer barrel is more accurate at longer ranges with the identical rounds? IE - tighter groups and longer ranges? Wink
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2011 at 14:04
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Chief Sackscratch

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no not necessarly.  rounds can drop subsonic and still be accurate,
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2011 at 14:04
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I guess what I was originally indicating is that would 3-9x40 get me out to the ranges where I can reliably shoot to with my 18" .308 FN PBR? Or should I have gone with a higher power scope because my rifle should actually be accurate out to 1000yds?

I'm not really sure what the limitations of the rifle are before the velocity drops to where my hits are based more on luck than skill.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2011 at 14:07
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Chief Sackscratch

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Originally posted by catalyst catalyst wrote:

I guess what I was originally indicating is that would 3-9x40 get me out to the ranges where I can reliably shoot to with my 18" .308 FN PBR? Or should I have gone with a higher power scope because my rifle should actually be accurate out to 1000yds?

I'm not really sure what the limitations of the rifle are before the velocity drops to where my hits are based more on luck than skill.
not to sound mean but way after your skill runs out.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2011 at 14:09
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YOur mag range is fine.  The problem you will have is the scope you bought is made to zero it and leave it a lone.  If is not designed to be making lots of elevation and windage adjustments that are needed for shooting longer ranges.  The 3-9x 4200 is a great hunting scope, but if you are wanting a scope to dial in those kinds of adjustments, you will be better off with something like the SWFA SS 3-9x.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2011 at 14:13
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A 168 SMK being shot at around 2650 will go subsonic around 900 yards.  Then it will go squirrely start tumbling and go all over the place with no consistency. 

Take the 175 SMK at 2650 it will stay super sonic to 1200ish yards and when it transitions it stays stable and does not tumble.  Just a difference in a design of the bullet.  The 168s were designed for 600 yard shooting the 175 for much longer.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2011 at 15:07
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Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

A 168 SMK being shot at around 2650 will go subsonic around 900 yards.  Then it will go squirrely start tumbling and go all over the place with no consistency. 

Take the 175 SMK at 2650 it will stay super sonic to 1200ish yards and when it transitions it stays stable and does not tumble.  Just a difference in a design of the bullet.  The 168s were designed for 600 yard shooting the 175 for much longer.



But at what range would that 168SMK being shot around 2650  go subsonic out of a 24" barrel versus an 18"?

I understand this to some extent - i mean its all just physics.

So if i were to return the scope and go with something that had windage and elevation adjustments, what range should i expect to see out of my rifle with reliably hitting targets (let's assume no shooter error is involved)? Going one step further, I  have to wonder - within safe limits, what distance could someone accurately fire identical ammunition out of an 18" barrel versus a 24", and at what distances would the barrel length actually come in to play for the ballistics of a .308 round.

Where I'm at right now is I have 2 .308 rifles - one is a 20" mossberg maverick chambered in .308 and the other is a 20" FN PBR chambered in .308. I guess I could put the 4200 on my mossberg and use it as a woods gun, and set up the PBR as a target rifle, so I can actually start to learn some of this stuff, if you're telling me the 18" barrel is no detraction at 900 or 1000yd shots.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2011 at 15:17
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You would need to shoot your gun through a chrono to know how fast it is going.  Guessing will not get us anywhere.  Then plug it into a ballistic program to get some direction.  Then actually go shoot and see how far you can shoot before they start to tumble. 




Edited by supertool73 - February/22/2011 at 15:18
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2011 at 15:39
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Originally posted by catalyst catalyst wrote:

so what is the relevance of barrel length in regards to accuracy then? i guess im a bit confused, because this goes against everything ive read / been told.
I think alot of people get confused on the barrel length vs. accuracy really only holds true when shooting irons sights. This is not b/c the barrel is more accurate, but b/c the increased sight radius has the potential to allow the shooter to be more accurate.
Of course for a scoped rifle it doesnt matter then. As said bfor, within reasonable length, a shorter barrel has the potential to be more accurate due to increased stiffness, assuming quality of barrel is the same (as noted bfor youre giving up some velocity).
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/23/2011 at 08:27
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9X is plenty big enough for anything you can hold with your arms.
31 bertram
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/23/2011 at 08:47
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Originally posted by lumberjack149 lumberjack149 wrote:

Originally posted by catalyst catalyst wrote:

so what is the relevance of barrel length in regards to accuracy then? i guess im a bit confused, because this goes against everything ive read / been told.
I think alot of people get confused on the barrel length vs. accuracy really only holds true when shooting irons sights. This is not b/c the barrel is more accurate, but b/c the increased sight radius has the potential to allow the shooter to be more accurate.
Of course for a scoped rifle it doesnt matter then. As said bfor, within reasonable length, a shorter barrel has the potential to be more accurate due to increased stiffness, assuming quality of barrel is the same (as noted bfor youre giving up some velocity).


Yeah I completely understand this line of thought with iron sights and I agree.



Some of my readings had me to believe that the a longer barrel better controls the propellant and increases accuracy at long ranges by keeping the velocity of the bullet higher.

I would have to think that with 2 identical barrels, one 14" and one 24" when you come to the peak range of 2 identical .308 rounds, the one fired from the 24" barrel would actually be more accurate due to the longer barrel controlling the propellant pressure for a greater period of time. Plus, with a longer barrel you can also use a slower burning powder, right? Still, we want an apples to apples comparison with the same load for both bullets.

I'm sure there are a bunch of ballistics formulas for figuring this type of information out, in order to figure out optimal barrel length in regards to bullet weight, powder load, rifling, atmospheric pressures, windage, etc. Its all just physics and geometry, but its way more work than I want to do.

My FN PBR has a bull barrel, so its pretty thick. With the unloaded rifle without a scope weighing in at 11lbs, I'm guessing this rifle is fairly accurate (which is why I bought it) and I like the Winchester 70 action the PBR is based on. With an aluminum bedded free floating stock I figured this thing would be a tack driver to like 500yds. I didn't really think I'd be doing much with it from 800-100 yards, given that it is only an 18" barrel.

Maybe I'm totally off on my understanding of ballistics, but I've always been told that a longer barrel is more accurate, to some extent. I mean eventually, the length of a barrel will actually detract from the accuracy of a round, as the friction coefficient outweighs the pressure gains from the bullet travel time within the barrel.

If you guys have some links and reading, I'd totally be happy to educate myself, because like I said, I am probably going to wind up getting into sport shooting within the next couple of years anyhow, because that seems to be the way I'm leaning and I rather read the right information, than the wrong stuff. :-(


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/23/2011 at 08:51
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To answer your question, "Did I make the right choice?" it really depends.  That's the "big question" we all ask.  Time will tell! 

I have this same scope on a .204 that we use to hunt coyotes with (so far) and it works great!  Nice clear glass.... holds zero.... things you want a basic "hunting" scope to do!  It should make a great "deer" hunting scope for your .308.  If you intend to use this set up for mostly hunting while occasionally punching paper - it was a good choice!

However, if you are mostly going to be punching paper at very long distance and maybe hunting with it occasionally - NOT such a good choice!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/23/2011 at 09:04
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Originally posted by Tip69 Tip69 wrote:

To answer your question, "Did I make the right choice?" it really depends.  That's the "big question" we all ask.  Time will tell! 

I have this same scope on a .204 that we use to hunt coyotes with (so far) and it works great!  Nice clear glass.... holds zero.... things you want a basic "hunting" scope to do!  It should make a great "deer" hunting scope for your .308.  If you intend to use this set up for mostly hunting while occasionally punching paper - it was a good choice!

However, if you are mostly going to be punching paper at very long distance and maybe hunting with it occasionally - NOT such a good choice!


mostly hunting with some paper punching. that might change in a few years, but i'll be able to pop this on my other .308 at that time.

it sounds like it has some good glass in it, and the rainguard sounds neat. for a budget scope, it feels like a good deal. i'll let you know when it shows up today. :-)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/24/2011 at 13:43
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Originally posted by SVT_Tactical SVT_Tactical wrote:

In simple terms, the longer the barrel the faster the bullet will be (most of the time) For example two identically loaded rounds are shot from two rifles one with a 18' barrel and the other with a 26' barrel the FPS difference would be say 300 for this example.  One way that helps is the extra 300fps would help the bullet stay supersonic longer making it at a farther distance where the bullet drops below the speed of sound (about 1050FPS) and sometimes will cause the bullet to deviate.  Using a ballistics calculator and playing with the numbers will give you and ideal of the difference.  As far as its  relationship to accuracy, I've seen 16" barrels ring steel at 1000yds, and I've seen 30" do it too. 

Don't let the length get to you, its how you use it!WinkRoll on Floor Laughing(i couldnt' resist)
IMO:
 
a rifle barrel over 22" is overkill for a non magnum rifle adding more length won't make much of a differnce in bullet velocity and will result in a gun's balancing point shifted forward.
 
for magnums anything under 22" is a waste... one loses a lot of bullet velocity to and gains a ton of muzzle blast and report.
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