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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/10/2009 at 17:04
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Anyone else think the idea of setting out to harvest game at 1000yds or better is unethical and unnecessary?  They seem to imply all you need is the Huskemaw scope and Berger bullets to shoot big game @ 1/2mile.  I'm all for long range shooting but consider it my responsibilty to attempt getting as close as possible for a shot.  There's even a list of confirmed kills at various ridiculous ranges.  Seems like it's all for braggin' rights IMO.
 
I was underwhelmed by the Huskemaw scope I played with last month as well.
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You've got MY vote on all above...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/10/2009 at 17:19
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since you opened the ethics can of worms, what range do you consider too far?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/10/2009 at 17:19
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I agree with the OP and KB.   If you want to impress me, kill a mature whitetail...with a bow....after the rut.



Edited by swtucker - November/10/2009 at 17:20
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/10/2009 at 17:25
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Originally posted by Dave Wilson Dave Wilson wrote:

since you opened the ethics can of worms, what range do you consider too far?
That somewhat depends on the shooter.  For me it's less than 500 yards, probably a lot less.   I'm limited by my ability, not my rifles.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/10/2009 at 17:27
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Amen on all points, Horse!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/10/2009 at 17:27
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I don't know how far is too far, depends obviously on the skill of the hunter (notice I did not say shooter).  At the ranges mentioned it is more like sniping with an animal for a target instead of paper.  That's a very long way where some small variable could change resulting in taking off a leg or gut shot instead of a clean skill.
 
Part of the hunting ethos is to insure to the extent possible a clean kill on your quarry.  Practicing woodcraft and getting closer helps the odds and to my mind is far more exciting.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/10/2009 at 17:30
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Originally posted by swtucker swtucker wrote:

Originally posted by Dave Wilson Dave Wilson wrote:

since you opened the ethics can of worms, what range do you consider too far?
That somewhat depends on the shooter.  For me it's less than 500 yards, probably a lot less.   I'm limited by my ability, not my rifles.
 
Judging from what I've seen of Joe Average Hunter's shooting ability at the range, I'd say much past 150 yards!
 
Very simply, I personally consider any range a person cannot keep 100% of all shots inside a 6" circle, all the time...too far.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/10/2009 at 17:40
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Originally posted by Dave Wilson Dave Wilson wrote:

since you opened the ethics can of worms, what range do you consider too far?
It is a difficult question you ask with more than one answer.  I'll give you one of the many.  To me it is not completely a matter of hunter ethics.  With the proper training and complementary skills, the proper weapon/ammunition, the proper optics (for the person using) an individual SHOULD be able to take a shot at game at any range they are comfortable with.  1) There are too many "macho men" who lack those things but won't allow themselves to believe it, and 2) I question the ethics of trying convince the "general' shooting public that if one buys a certain rifle and scope, ANYBODY can go out and shoot their deer/elk/whatever at 1000+ yards.  I've a friend who, God Bless him, shoots quite a bit, hunts all season long, almost every day, but just CAN'T shoot.  He misses a lot of deer at relatively moderate ranges.  Fortunately, he is not a computer user, because if he saw a Huskemaw add, he would go get their rifle and scope and try to shoot deer at 1000+ yards.  The deer might not be in much danger, but everyone else would.  The majority of the public has no business trying to shoot at such ranges, mostly because they don't practice enough, but many for other reasons, as well.  Shooting game at 1000+ yards has moved far away from "hunting".  Don't get me wrong, I LOVE long range shooting.  If I ever see the "mother of all game animals" at extreme range, have no option to get closer, and have the appropriate rifle with me, he's in big trouble... That has never happened in that format in all my years of hunting.  I've, a number of times, threatened to take the long range shot, but always managed to convince myself I was a better hunter than that.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/10/2009 at 18:10
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Originally posted by Dave Wilson Dave Wilson wrote:

since you opened the ethics can of worms, what range do you consider too far?
 
It has to be different for everyone.  I do a lot of paper killing all year but not much past 300yds.  So for me personally I'd hesitate to shoot at deer sized game over 400yds. especially hunting here where the wind always blows.  But the point is I'd consider it unethical for myself to CHOOSE to shoot further than I have to for bragging rights.  So I could have my name on a list.  I wouldn't shoot at 300yds if I thought I could close the distance before getting busted.  I've hunted western states.  It's not hard to get closer than 1000yds to anything hunted there.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/10/2009 at 19:23
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this question always has quite a debate. just look at the posts above. some shouldn't shoot over 150, i'm good to 500, 400's my limit. there are many who condem those that take shots at game over 200 sighting all the same reasons already given. i can guarantee you shots at 7-800 yards are boring to some. yes very few people have the skills to take game at 1/2 mile and above, but some do it all the time. is it hunting? of course it's hunting. i look at it like it's 1% hunting and 99% shooting ability. on the other end of the spectrum is a fellow back home here that says hunting with a bow is too easy. he gets a deer almost every year with a spear. too me this is 99% hunting and 1% shooting. it's always a combination of both and the skill level of the individual usually determines his perspective.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/10/2009 at 19:35
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I was taught to take game as humanely as possible.  Not to stretch things out until I felt challenged.  IMO if one can't get inside 1/2mile of a critter they're not much of a hunter.  The idea that very few people "have the skills to take game at 1/2 mile and above" is exaclty why the show and scopes foster the potential for unethical ego boosting shots on game.
 
The question is not if you can shoot that far but if you should. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/10/2009 at 19:37
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Huskemaw is generally known for making a crap product at a very high price.

They have a gimmick and it ain't a particularly good one.

They didn't invent the BDC, they didn't even perfect it; they just convinced many that havng one neabt a hunter with no experience or skill could kill something way, way out.  Having made 1,000 shots, I know this is pure fantasy.

I've seen MANY at the range with nice rifle and nice scope and the only thing safe downrange was the bull's eye.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/10/2009 at 19:38
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First thing wrong with that is that they are risking a lost animal for the sake of advertising. When you put that much terrafirma between you and a live animal, you can't predict what the animal is going to do at lift off. But again, my beef with those jerkoff's is in the advertising.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/10/2009 at 21:52
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Only good thing I see that came from them is they made it more well known that the Berger VLD is a great hunting bullet, got the interest of others who are very respected, well-known - they tested even more and they sound better and better.
 
It seems like quite a few different companies are trying to sell people on long range shooting, even the big names in optics, bullets, etc. are pushing it more and more.  Hopefully the ones buying the goodies remain humble and put in extensive training and preparation for the time an extended-range shot presents itself.
 
I wouldn't ever think anybody who plans and trains to shoot animals 400-700 yards is foolish though.  300 yards should be a given for anybody who carries a rifle away from home or the range...
 
 


Edited by danjojoUSMC - November/10/2009 at 21:52
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/10/2009 at 22:15
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Let's forget shooter skill for a minute.  The fact is, the average out of the box, sporter weight factory rifle IS NOT INHERENTLY ACCURATE ENOUGH to ethically attempt an 800 - 1000 yd shot at a game animal!  Even a true 1 MOA rifle IS NOT ACCURATE ENOUGH (occasional 1" groups don't qualify either)!!!  Consider that with a 1 MOA rifle, the conical dispersion from POA is a bit over 10" in diameter at 1000 yds... BEST CASE!  Factor in wind, unpredictable animal movements, an imperfect rest, awkward shooting position, and shooter error in with the rifle's limitations, and a hit in the vitals is a low probability.  That is simply unacceptable when your target is a live animal!  Huskemaw and the Best of the West is actively promoting this type of thinking to hunters who don't know better.

Edited by RifleDude - November/10/2009 at 22:18
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/10/2009 at 22:37
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You are right RifleDude, .8 of a second or more to reach the distance is a lot of time for wind gusts and those unpredictable animal movements.  Even human bad-guys who are a lot less athletic can move some crazy distances in less than a second. 

I wonder if they had a Bloopers Edition for the Best of the West how many animals we would see sent off to suffer a long, painful death.  No way in hell they have 100 percent success rate.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/11/2009 at 05:28
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One just need to participate in a field shoot, with life-sized animal targets put out at varying distances with only limited rests and positions to realize how difficult it is to take an animal cleanly beyond 300yds.
Shooting on a range, with a clean red or black bull to aim at is a lot easier then aiming at the non-descript general area of the heart/lung area.
 


Edited by 8shots - November/11/2009 at 05:28
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/11/2009 at 11:37
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Im glad this topic was brought up, lots of good thoughts and experience guys. I like to hear this sort of interesting topic. Me, 30 years ago Ive taken and made clean 250 yard shots on broadside Deer while shooting off hand with no wind to blow me all over the target... The shape Im in today, I would not even consider it with out a good rest..I would have to say that 300 yards is about my limit under perfect conditions and a good rest....I have better optics, and better loads and much better rifles today, verses when I started hunting... 
        Again though my physical disabilites hold me back from being all I can be...This is one of the main reasons I am on this forum today. So I can learn from you guys how to be a better shooter/hunter and everthing that goes with that, including making it more fun.  Im learning ways VERY SLOWLY I might add to be able to get better at hunting/shooting in spite of my condition...A guy really has no idea how much he does not know until he finds the willingness to truly listen to others and learn what not to do as much as what he needs to do..........This year has been the first year since 2003 that Ive phisically been able to hunt. Ive found that Im able to still hunt, using a stand in other words. I will be Elk hunting again this weekend (Saturday Only) I will not be very far from the truck either. Ive found a great spot where the Elk cross from Forset Service ground to private ground while being pushed.. I will keep in mind while Im there what you guys have said about taking ethical shots, etc. as this spot is in very open country. As one of you said its very tempting to take long shots at times... I will be set up with rests to shoot off of for sure...Thanks!Wink
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/11/2009 at 20:52
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Originally posted by danjojoUSMC danjojoUSMC wrote:

 
I wouldn't ever think anybody who plans and trains to shoot animals 400-700 yards is foolish though.  300 yards should be a given for anybody who carries a rifle away from home or the range...
 
 
I guess I'm one that trains for this all year long. I won't say that I go out LOOKING for that shot, but after missing an opportunity on the biggest mule deer I've ever seen in my life, (he stood at about 450 yds) I didn't want to have my ability limit me if I could help it. I wasn't sure I could make the shot cleanly, so I had to let him walk away. About 4000 rounds later, I was presented with the same opportunity. When I pulled the trigger, I knew with 99% certainty, that the animal was going down. If you ever intend to take shots like the best of the west guys do, you better put your time in! I shoot at targets out to 700 all the time, but I would have to draw the line at 500, even with practice. Too many things can happen at these ranges. For the average hunter around here who fires 8 rounds from his rifle a year, I'd say 150 yards is pretty much the limit.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/11/2009 at 23:07
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I shoot all year, Washington weather permitting also.  However, the near home gun club range only goes to 200 yards.  So, I practice and practice with rifles ranging from .270 Win up to .340 Wea Mag at 200 yards.  Like JF4545, I have health issues and am waiting to move south to Oregon before elk hunting again.  I don't think my health issues will impede my shooting because I have learned to pace myself.
 
The longest shot that I have ever taken was at a mule deer that, computing by bullet drop was about 425 yards away.  This was not a howling success unfortunately for the poor deer.  Because of faulty range estimation, I broke the deer's lower shoulder and the sternum but did not kill him.  I had to track this deer for two hours and finally kill him.
 
This effort was a fiasco that brought home to me the problems of mountain hunting in swirling wind currents, shooting from one mountain to another, complicated by the animal shifting slightly during the .5 second bullet flight time.  I have killed several deer at around 300 yards with no issues and one shot kills.  That is my practical limit despite having the sub-MOA tools and skills to shoot farther. 
 
I see people at the range constantly who have no business shooting at game over 100 yards away.  Egos notwithstanding, I am sure that some of these shooters will fall for the Huskemaw line and buy one of their overpriced scopes and buy the line of BS being promoted that states "average shooters can kill game at 1000 yards" when they can not reliably kill it at 200 yards with their own scoped rifles.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/11/2009 at 23:38
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Don't lynch me for this one, guys... I have a respect and appreciation for all of God's creation, which includes animals.  I also have been given (along with all of mankind) dominion over these things.  I don't find it worthwhile to discuss or contemplate "humane" treatment of animals, as the word denotes an ascribed personification, and animals are not humans - we are distinctly different.  That doesn't mean, however, that I don't think that if your motives are to see harm done and pain inflicted that you're not messed up in your head (as would likely be the case). 
I appreciate what Dave Wilson said about 1% hunting and 99% shooting - at what point are you no longer hunting and, rather, simply shooting a target for bragging rights?  I agree that this particular practice is bull corn.  If your game won't let you get within 700 or 1000 yds, then that is still a hunt.  That likely doesn't happen much.  (wouldn't know because I don't hunt big game yet...)
There is, however, the fact that man was created superior to the animals, and has used his gifting to create superior methods of predatory commerce - so why should we not be able to use them?  The next time a bear or a white tail builds a better rifle than mine, I'll accept my loss.
But when you're taking a 1000 yd shot just to say you did it (especially without proper preparation and without necessity), that really cheapens it.  "Oh, look guys, I just shot an elk at 1000 yards who didn't even know I existed, nor did he suspicion it."  That's not very good sport, I guess.  It's target practice.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/12/2009 at 00:58
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Humane does not mean to treat the object the same as a human but to act with compassion....to see the beauty in things other than your own self and show respect.  It's used commonly for animals because it's considered healthy, mature human behavior to show reverence for life.  Most animals will do the same unless they perceive the other life form as a food source or they feel threatened.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/12/2009 at 07:08
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Originally posted by danjojoUSMC danjojoUSMC wrote:

Humane does not mean to treat the object the same as a human but to act with compassion....to see the beauty in things other than your own self and show respect.  It's used commonly for animals because it's considered healthy, mature human behavior to show reverence for life.  Most animals will do the same unless they perceive the other life form as a food source or they feel threatened.


Indeed, after consulting the dictionary to review the definitions of humane, the first of two commonly listed is to act with compassion, respect, etc; and my use was relegated to the second definition (some degree of personification).  Good point, danojojo.  And, semantics aside, this is indeed how I treat God's creation.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/12/2009 at 07:28
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 "Oh, look guys, I just shot an elk at 1000 yards who didn't even know I existed, nor did he suspicion it."  That's not very good sport, I guess.  It's target practice.
 
Now this opens another can of worms. I mostly hunt off driven hunts, either using beaters or dogs, or both. The game certainly knows I am around. So that would make me a fair chase hunter by the above statement? Some guys think not, because I am shooting at moving game.
 Now the object of a walk and stalk is to sneak up on an animal in such a way that he does not know you existed.
The same goes for the ambush style hunt, or sitting in a tree stand or blind. So the only thing separating this style of hunting (walk and stalk or ambush) from the 1000 yarder is distance. Is this wrong? No not at all, the object of a hunt is to make the kill.
This season I sat in an ambush position and a red hartebeest walked straight towards me. When my rangefinder read 200m I put a bullet between his eyes. It felt just like target practise, but was it?
And what distance is a long shot? According to the NRA 600yds. On the one farm we hunt the farmer reckons if you can see them they are within shooting distance!
I shoot a lot myself and have taken animals in excess of 400yds. I took those shots only because it was the only possibilty available. If a nice trophy walks out, I would prefer him to be about 50 yds away.
So, I guess what I am trying to say is that when it comes to hunting, you have to make that kill. Just do it in such a manner that you can live with yourself afterwards.


Edited by 8shots - November/12/2009 at 07:38
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