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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2009 at 17:47
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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all of the hunting rifles they have today are highly accurate compared to what I grew up using. air-support --- around here people hire airplanes for spotting game. personally I don't have a problem with people having crappy scopes or rifles, their chances of even making a hit are low, granted they may make a bad shot, but so do "good" shots. statistically its a toss up but the amount of money pumped into the system is the same. And this doesn't even come close to the use of atv's and how many extras in dollars are thrown at a hunt. What ever reason a hunter wants to have in implementing additional information into the hunt is ok by me-- be it GPS or helicopters-- just a long as they keep doing it. Being prepared for the 400 yd shot seems dubious to me, regardless of the shooters skill there are only two outcomes,. hit or a miss, (discounting bad hits for a moment) in the grand scheme of things its immaterial. One could argue about bad hits-- it there were even the remote possible of enough statistics to support the conclusion. ie better shots make less bad hits.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2009 at 18:49
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Dale-I'm gonna pound on ya here and now, but I wouldn't bother if I didn't know you can take it!

 We were discussing tactical scopes versus hunting scopes whe JB called you on it, so let's dump the "air support" argument right now. Completely different issue, and irrelevant to this discussion.
 
If you care at all about hunting ethics, (and I know you do-more than most, probably), you really need to start having a problem with people using crappy scopes and rifles. I've seen plenty of deer and elk crippled by guys who tried to make a clean kill, but whose equipment didn't allow them the accuracy necessary to accomplish that. And "good" shots wound game FAR less often than the incompetent do, (Statistically Speaking, of course.). No question about that.  
 As far as being prepared for a 400 yard shot- I can't think of a single reason why it could possibly be construed as dubious or unethical to have that capability whether one decides to take advantage of that capability or not. Indeed, there have been several times that I've seen a good rifleman with top-notch gear put down an animal wounded previously by a "poor" marksman with shoddy equipment, even though he was three times farther away from the critter.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2009 at 19:18
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I think this scope would provide both for hunting and targeting or tactical.  This is on the sample list  so it is discounted.  http://www.samplelist.com/default.aspx?display_num=10&mfg_selection=5&prod_type=-1&hide_sold=false I would say this is a great scope for any application...

side note I overheard a DNR or conservation officer one day say that the 22lr and .45-70 have killed more north americain animals than any other cartridges w/out scopes gotta love those indians and early hunters...
 
Back to the topic here is the scope at  a sweet price.


Edited by 338LAPUASLAP - November/29/2009 at 19:20
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2009 at 19:21
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Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:

I think this scope would provide both for hunting and targeting or tactical.  This is on the sample list  so it is discounted.  http://www.samplelist.com/default.aspx?display_num=10&mfg_selection=5&prod_type=-1&hide_sold=false I would say this is a great scope for any application...

side note I overheard a DNR or conservation officer one day say that the 22lr and .45-70 have killed more north americain animals than any other cartridges w/out scopes gotta love those indians and early hunters...
 
Back to the topic here is the scope at  a sweet price.

I know what you meant by that...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2009 at 19:23
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Originally posted by 338LAPUASLAP 338LAPUASLAP wrote:

I think this scope would provide both for hunting and targeting or tactical.  This is on the sample list  so it is discounted.  http://www.samplelist.com/default.aspx?display_num=10&mfg_selection=5&prod_type=-1&hide_sold=false I would say this is a great scope for any application...

side note I overheard a DNR or conservation officer one day say that the 22lr and .45-70 have killed more north americain animals than any other cartridges w/out scopes gotta love those indians and early hunters...
 
Back to the topic here is the scope at  a sweet price.
Man! You are killing me! I want it!...............I need to win the lottery.....Whacko
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2009 at 20:21
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Here's a specific incident that happened this year (for those of you who have seen reference to this in other posts, pardon the repetition): I was antelope hunting with two friends, their dad and the son of one. While I was walking down a gully, Bro1 fired a round from his .30-06 about 20 feet over my head. I was more than glad to be below the horizon. I came to the end of the gully, which opened into a small valley. Looking towards the east, I saw an antelope buck which was moving at a good clip but was obviously wounded. He was about 400 yards away. However, despite feeling ready to make such a shot, I dropped to the ground, popped the bipod and waited until he came within 200 yards and dropped him in his tracks with a single shot to the lungs. While field dressing the animal, I saw that he had been shot through the left rear leg right above the hoof. Now, that is just piss-poor shooting and it mostly had to do with an over-eager "hunter" who fired over 20 rounds that day. (I fired one). But I also know for a fact - since I have once gotten him to go with me to the range to sight it in - that his plastic stock rifle with a $100 Bushnell can't shoot well. The scope shifted windage every time we adjusted the elevation and vice-versa.

I've seen responsible, talented marksmen do some great shooting with run-of-the-mill rifles, but in general, it seems there are a lot of people whose crappy hunting practices go hand in hand with their choice of crappy equipment. On the other hand, people I know who have made a serious investment in some carefully considered optics, rifles and handloading equipment are highly responsible hunters who know their limits. Personally, I don't have an interest in so-called long range hunting and my choice of chambering reflects that - .308 Win. Yet I'll glean what I can from those folks and target shoot out to the supersonic limit of that round just for the challenge. But I know that doesn't mean I can expect to knock down a cow elk @ 400 yards. So I should clarify that 400 for me is the max for antelope, maybe 350 for deer, and 300 for elk.


Edited by jonoMT - November/29/2009 at 20:23
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2009 at 20:25
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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preceived need vs. actual need. the air support is just a relative basis as to how far technology can be taken to achieve an end-- being hunting or etc. Personally know hunters who take more game than the average with outdated rifles, scopes, etc. To say that a better piece of equipment is going to make up for skills, assumes causality that isn't there. The out come of a shot is 50% regardless of any thing that went before it, the event has no memory of either previous events or preparation for the event to change the probability of the outcome. Ethics doesn't have anything to do with it either case. The shooter is preceiving he can skew the probability of the outcome by better equip, practice etc.(throwing money at it). Its dubious that the outcome is this straight forward. I'm not sure what 22 lr and 45-70 have to do with it. Ever been on a rabbit drive in Idaho, more rabbits are killed with bats than guns, and in total numbers exceed hunting kills in several years, so not sure what driving animals over cliffs, 22 have to do with the 50% outcome of the shot. If a hunter wants the additional wt,length,cost of a tactical scope good for them.
The biggest effect tactical scopes have had in the past years is to make the total quality of hunting scopes improve dramatically.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2009 at 20:55
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

The out come of a shot is 50% regardless of any thing that went before it, the event has no memory of either previous events or preparation for the event to change the probability of the outcome. Ethics doesn't have anything to do with it either case. The shooter is preceiving he can skew the probability of the outcome by better equip, practice etc.(throwing money at it). Its dubious that the outcome is this straight forward. 
I hate to say that I think this is over simplified Dale. Yes shot probability is hit or miss, and that is 50%, but that's like saying that there is exactly a 50% chance of rain every day everywhere in the world, regardless of their natural climate conditions. I know for fact that if I got behind my rifle to make a 400 yard shot at my typical 400 yd target, that I'd consider my probability of a hit to be 95%. I know another guy that could shoot just as many rounds at that same target in the same conditions, and I don't give him 5%. I would call that skewing the outcome by practicing, and having equipment that is up to the task. If I'm wrong let me know. Then I could sell all this high dollar crap I have, and shoot a lot less, and still make the same amount of hits as I do now.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2009 at 21:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2009 at 22:25
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Dale, I'm sorry but I have to completely disagree with two of your statements. Sure, any shot can be a hit or a miss but that's true of basketball too. Doesn't mean I can go head to head with Lebron James. Both logic and experience have shown me that an experienced shooter will hit the target far more often. What good equipment does is remove some of the variability and offers features, such as target knobs, that allow a knowledgeable shooter to be more precise. If nothing else, the training and acquisition of knowledge and performance data shows the dedicated shooter his limitations. Someone who doesn't go to those lengths will probably borrow his perceptions from Hollywood.

As for whether or not ethics has anything to do with it, yes it does regarding the broader question of whether most shots you take will hit their mark and result in a quick, humane kill that doesn't waste meat. I, like many hunters, had a couple bad experiences (early on) resulting in a kill that was not as clean. It may well happen to me again some day...but it's going to happen more to those who don't train, who don't overcome bad habits and who rely on poor equipment. One reason I've moved to tactical scopes like NF and Premier is because I just don't have the patience anymore to tolerate even a decent $270 scope like the Leupold FX-II 4X (which I hunted with for several years). It's just not acceptable to me to have a scope where I'd dial in 1/2 MOA and every time I would the POI shifted a full MOA. Under normal hunting use, these tactical scopes should hold up until I'm too old to walk in the mountains any longer.


Edited by jonoMT - November/29/2009 at 22:26
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2009 at 09:09
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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somedays you could go head to head with James, it just that you can't do it every day-- consistently like the pros, thats what make them pros. Ethics doesn't have anything to do with the outcome of the shot, only probability. Feeling confident about your capabilites doesn't change the math. Buying points either in competitive events or hunting with better gear is as old as the events. You just see it done in competitive events in a shorter compressed time frame, whereas a hunter will get to it next season. Skewing the probability is different than skewing the measurement (outcome,statistic) the outcome is still heads or tails. How often the same side comes up is dependant on the number of trials.Its really not like the weather, weather is poisson time continous distribution, shooting is strictly gaussian. You probably do know a guy etc, now take that and add the guys I know, then take that all the guys, and you get a standard distribution-no magic . some shooters will never get past 1 sigma level regardless of practice and equipment-- seen it 100's of times in competitive events.  Making a cold bore first shot hit under hunting conditions, is different than practice routines,as shooting a new stage in competition. Both hunting and competitive events have floors in equipment, (some can get very elaborate and detailed) needs, once these are met only increases in skills score points.  It's what makes book in Vegas.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2009 at 09:13
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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might add here that a shooter can make his shooting statistics a poisson time continous, if they want to keep good records, this is how batting averages are done. In any event the distribution stays with the hitter and while batting averages can be compared across the board they are still time independant events, so care must be used- and thats all I know about baseball.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2009 at 09:17
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also if your weather prediction was simply that the sun is going to shine tommorrow  you would be correct 60% of the time. weather is the best example of time dependant on inital conditions deterministic chaotic events.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2009 at 11:08
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It's very difficult to realistically simulate making a cold-bore shot under hunting conditions because 1) There's nothing like shooting under pressure at a live animal and 2) Those opportunities are limited - such as by the number of tags a hunter has per season. However, someone who target shoots only cold-bore shots (waiting, say, 15 minutes between shots on a 40F day) at his average hunting elevation is going to place more of those shots closer to the bullseye than someone who runs out the range and hastily fires off 10-20 rounds in less than an hour. That person would have a better chance at making a more accurate shot and that, to me, translates to a better probability of making a humane kill, which is where ethics enter into the picture. I'm not trying to say that if you're a good, moral person that will make you a better hunter/shooter. I am saying, however, that someone with good natural ability will be a more ethical hunter by preparing diligently and using reliable equipment than someone of equal ability who is careless in preparation and uses shoddy or poorly maintained equipment. If nothing else, a hunter with a good tactical scope can't blame it when he misses.


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