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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2008 at 17:35
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 I know that this must have been covered before but I am new here.  Not even sure how to access the search feature.   I am having a custom made Swinglock muzzleloader built to shoot 9.3mm bullets and want a fine scope to sit on topSmile   This is all going to set me back a pretty penny and i want a scope that will do the job for long range hunting and also have enough magnification for 300-400 range target shooting.
 
Clarity and light gathering features are of importance of course but not sure I can or should afford a Kahles although that is what I really want.   My question is concerning the Nikon Monarch 6-20x44 as compared to Zeiss Conquest,  Bushnell Elite, and Leupold VX-3 and others in the $400-$700 price range.  Is the glass on the Monarch really comparable to the Zeiss?  I know that this is subjective for sure but just am looking for a little imput.
 
Thanking you in advance........Doug
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2008 at 18:20
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Welcome to O.T.
The Swinglock appears to be a very nice smoke pole. I don't know what .36 caliber bullets you are looking at for long range shooting so I wonder the need for such a powerful scope.
The Nikon's are definitely a good choice for the money as are the 4200's. In a 6.5-20 you cannot go wrong with the Leupold, either. The Leupy is a very well established hunting scope. I used one on a mule deer hunt on a .300 Wby MarkV. It was way too much scope for big game. It is a top choice for varmints, though.
There are some Kahles out there in your price range on the http://www.samplelist.com/default.aspx?display_num=10&mfg_selection=5&prod_type=1&hide_sold=false
I have several custom smoke poles myself and I am very interested in what you are looking at. Their website did not feed me enough. I find your choice very intriguing.

Good luck,
Doug

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2008 at 18:37
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 Actually Doug (kewl name) Muzzleloading is not what it used to be with the presentation of the Savage 10ML built to shoot smokeless powder.  Many folks are shooting MOA and under at 300 yards and we are always pushing the limit.  Smaller projectiles (less than 45 cal) seem to have much better Ballistic Coefficients but also seem to require higher pressures to cause the bullet to obturate enough to catch the twist in the rifling which also is very hard on breech plugs.  Muzzleloaders have no throat..
 
Thanks for the list of Kahles scopes but the only thing in my price range is the American Hunter.  Is the glass on this scope superior to the Leupy that you mentioned?  Remember my primary use for this scope as far as hunting is concerned is long range bench type of shooting from a stand overlooking fields or cutovers.  For pushing through the thick forests in the Va mountains I have my Savage.  It is UGLY but every whitetail that I have ever shot went straight down.  Just makes tracking kind of hard when the deer is laying in the blood trailThunbs%20Up  thanks for your help.......Doug
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2008 at 19:27
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The American Hunter glass is the same as other Kahles. Mine are all C type 30mm but the glass has the same coatings and is made in the same place. The savings are in the 1". Too bad they aren't in your power range. If you can get by with 12x, the contrast and resolution will be a step up from the others you mentioned.
If not, the other three you mentioned all have fans here. I like all three and have them, but not in your power range. One thing for sure, I see a lot of the 6.5-20 Leupold's at the club and in the field. They are a very good scope but cost more than the Bushnell or Nikon.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2008 at 19:48
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 thanks a bunch........ I didn't see the American Hunter listed on the Ratings list so I thought it must be somewhat inferior or not worth mentioning.  Everyone I have talked with who owned a Kahles is enthusiastic about their performance.  It seems that what I am hearing here is that Leupold makes a great hunting scope and is rugged but I have read in other forums that their glass is lacking when compared with Zeiss Conquest and some others. 
 
I know that 12x is plenty for my hunting needs I just didn't want to have to buy a spotting scope for long range target shooting.   But that might make more sense though.  Good response here......thanks
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2008 at 20:43
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Wlecome to the OT Doug,
 
I have recently built a long range smoke pole. I kept it on the 50cal side lock style. I must say I am pleased with the rifle, but I am still working on the best load combination. I have a marlin 444 that I load custom rounds for that I am getting 3 inch groups at 300yds. with the 240gr. HP. I ordered the barrel for this build with a 1 in 28 twist to accomidate sabots and the same slug I use in the 444. I may try some different weight slugs but I'm going to try the smokeless powder you mentioned first. I understand you can get some pretty good velocity with that powder. This is a heavy barrel so I can push it alittle but I don't think that will be necessary. My goal it to get the same or better results as I am getting with the 444.
I am anxtious to hear how things go with your build. Send some pics when you can.
 

                                

 

    I hope this pic gets through.

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/18/2008 at 21:02
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Five more posts, then I may be able to show this fine piece of craftsmenship. Anybody want to talk politics? Chair%20HitJust kidding!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2008 at 08:10
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Originally posted by Sgt. D Sgt. D wrote:

Five more posts, then I may be able to show this fine piece of craftsmenship. Anybody want to talk politics? Chair%20HitJust kidding!
 
.444 are gayWink
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2008 at 11:06
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Tahqua,
 
Man that hurt!Nut%20KickerI guess from now on when I'm splattering ground hogs and preditors I'll think of you. Na%20Na
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2008 at 11:43
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Hogs and predators are gay, too.

Four more to go.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2008 at 12:02
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Sgt D....that is outstanding accuracy there at 100 yds.  Will be tough to beat that with a muzzleloader but it can be done.  The powders that will be reasonably chosen to shoot will depend on the weight of the projectile and to some extent the length of the barrel.

I can't seem to understand how consistent accuracy can be obtained by using sabots even thought I shoot with them.  You wouldn't think that the bullet would release from the sabot the exact same way every time without some sort of canting involved.

I love those old traditional smokepoles and I  wouldn't blame anyone for sticking with them. But one thing is for sure.....you can shoot much faster, flatter and safer with smokeless powder and without the clean up that is necessary with using black powder.  I am still trying to decide on a scopeStare

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2008 at 12:54
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I use to think that about sabots as well, but when I bought the traditions rifle that I used in this build 10 years ago. I tried the sabots with the 240 HP and when I got to the 90 grain load it was like magic. If I did my part it would put them in the same hole every time. I was a hunter saftey instructor and when we had our feild day class all the wildlife officers would stand around in disbelief. But it was very consistant. The last couple of years the barrel started to show that it had gone as far as it could. So I decided to salvage what I could and get aleast 10 more years out of it. This new barrel doesn't like the same charge as before, but I'll find the one this year. The best I've got so far is 1 1/2 at 100yds. with 140 gr. pyrodex. When we finish our new range at the club next month I'll be able to get back to work on it. I think you will get good accuracy on your build. I've heard of some other guys building the smaller calibers for accuracy, but I haven't heard any results yet.
I wouldn't recommend it to anyone else but I have the Simmons pro-50+ on this rifle. The same one from 10 years ago. I am thinking of putting a Grand Slam I have on it to see if maybe the Simmons is becoming a problem. I'm one who always over scopes my rifles, but that is what I prefer. During gun season I always carry my bow or pistol for close shots and use my rifle for the out there stuff. I've noticed that alot of the pro's on this forum like the perfect fit, but I'm usually not satisfied with just enough. Hiding INCOMING!!!!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2008 at 13:10
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 I went with the

Nikon 6.5-20x44 Monarch UCC Riflescope   with the illuminated mil-dot . You get the both worlds and the option of IR or not . SWFA has them on sale ! Now I have to dig out my black powder thunder cannon .... had it put away for awhile .

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2008 at 13:32
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 Sgt D.......that is some mighty fine shooting but I can assure you that is possible with a muzzleloader also.   The beauty of the smokeless powders is that you have so much flexibility and control.  You can shoot fast or slow not only by choosing how much powder but also which powder as they run the gammit from very fast burning to very slow burning.  You certainly wouldn't want to do this arbitrarily but with good guidelines and possibly some trace pressure charting to give you an idea of the pressures that are built within the barrel with any given powder.  It is certainly exciting but should always be approached with some caution and reason.
 
I am still amazed that great and consistent accuracy can be found by shooting saboted bullets even though I use them.  I just can't picture the bullet being released from the sabot in the exact same way everytime it leaves the muzzle.  I would think that there is certainly room for canting to occur thus affecting accuracy.  But doesn't matter what I think because there are many who are shooting saboted bullets to 300 yards and MOA accuracy.
 
By the way, does anyone have experience in dealing with Kahles as far as warranty is concerned.  This info could help me decide on a scope.
 
 Thanks
 Doug
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2008 at 13:34
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sorry I thought that my previous post didn't go through but I also see Nikon Monarch UCC on sale.  What is the deal with that?  Why are they so much less expensive than the regular Monarch?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2008 at 13:44
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 They stopped making that model .... but that's where you get the deals ! Next year they'll stop making another one . Full lifetime warranty .... superior glass ... great dependability ... as you may have seen a couple months ago they were  hundreds of dollars more ! And I loved the knobs .... easy to get to and adjust . Mine is due to arrive wed. or thurs . SWFA sent her out right away . I'd jump on that baby . Illuminated rectile ..... all the goodies and toys for that price can't be beat . Plus superior glass and quality .... just my opinion ... you can spend weeks researching like I did .... but that's what I ordered from SWFA . 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2008 at 13:45
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That is some good shooting with any smoke pole Sgt D.
Only three to go and we get to see picsThunbs%20Up


Edited by tahqua - April/20/2008 at 10:00
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2008 at 13:46
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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Hogs and predators are gay, too.

Four more to go.
 
 
I'm just so off-ended with your cold view of such fine targets I mean critters.  Pig
But to dis my Marlin! The nerve!! I invite you to the boxing ring for three rounds of controlled atmosphere.  Bounce
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2008 at 14:28
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Merceanary.......I see the when SWFA rated scopes they have the Monarch on the same level as a Zeiss Conquest.  Does the glass really compare with the Zeiss?? 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2008 at 20:09
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Ok lets see if I can get this pic on here.
 
 
 
 
 
The image is alittle off. I wanted to be sure it wasn't too big. Not bad for the first build in about 10 yrs. The lock, trigger and scope are from the older Traditions rifle. The barrel is from track of the Wolf. And the stock is the wildcat from Richard's Microfit. Which was cut for a 98 Mauser w/o the barrel channel. What do you guys think?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2008 at 10:02
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Nice, Sgt D.
I've never seen a modern stock with a traditional side lever. That is really cool.
Congratulations on fifty!

Doug
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Nice looking rifle, SgtD. Black powder is making a big comeback in South Africa due to our stingent lic requirements for normal firarms.
On the scope advise I would pay more attention to adjustment reliability, eye relief etc of the different scopes you are considering. I have found that at the middle to top end glass seems pretty much "bright and clear" on all the different models.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2008 at 11:08
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Now we have to get Doug up to fifty posts see that we can see his Swinglock!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2008 at 11:15
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Originally posted by 8shots 8shots wrote:

On the scope advise I would pay more attention to adjustment reliability, eye relief etc of the different scopes you are considering. I have found that at the middle to top end glass seems pretty much "bright and clear" on all the different models.
 
 Very good advise.  I am concerned about contrast and clarity at higher magnifications as my current Sightron SII 6.5-20x50 scope is a little blurry at 20x.  Eye relief is a big consideration which is why I like the 4" eye relief of the  Conquests.  I once was bonked on the forehead while target shooting and that isn't fun.
 
 There is absolutely many good quality scopes out there from which to choose making choice more difficult.  I wish I could throw the Elite 6500 in the mix but there is absolutely no experience with them that I can encounter.
 
Gorgeous rifle there Sgt D
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