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How to use MOA knobs with MIL reticle?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2010 at 00:05
Blackbird97 View Drop Down
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This weekend I will be taking out my new Super Sniper 10X to the 50-600 yard range for the first time. I was just wondering how to use the mixed style MOA knob and MIL reticle style? Are there any write ups or techniques? Any help or insight would be greatly appreciated! Thanks much guys, I'm excited as hell to try this out!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2010 at 00:22
jonoMT View Drop Down
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If you take a shot and see, for example, that you need to come up 1 mil the conversion to 1/4 MOA clicks is 13.75. Round to the nearest click.
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I just bought mine also and hope to try it out this weekend.  Also bought the Mil Dot Master.  The Mil/MOA also have had me perplexed.  I am hoping to eventually do the conversion in the field with out the fumbling of a slide rule.  Let me know how you like the scope!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2010 at 05:41
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The easiest thing is to simply decide what you're going to use for what and use those units.  If you're going to use the turrets, use MOA.  If you're going to use the reticle, use Mil.

My preferred method is dialing elevation and holding wind so in the past with such scopes I've simply printed my drop chart in MOA for drop, Mil for wind.  If you want to dial both, go MOA on both.  If you want to hold both, go Mil on both....

That's not as nice as matching obviously but that's the way I recommend doing it so you never get confused and never need to do math in the field. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2010 at 06:28
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So,  I could use the Mil for rangefinding and then MOA for my specific bullet drop.. I get it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/25/2010 at 11:52
Blackbird97 View Drop Down
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OK OK, so let me see if I am understanding, to use the turrets, you just need to use the center cross hairs, and then adjust the turrets accordingly? But to use the MIL DOT reticle, I need to use the dots, and do a holdover? And there is no way to use them both in unison? Sorry guys, I am sure this i really simple, it just hasn't clicked with me yet lol. Thanks for your time. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2010 at 11:34
jonoMT View Drop Down
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Part of what makes it confusing is that there are two different systems of measurement being used - mils and MOA - both of which, BTW, happen to be measurements of angle, not distance. As JonA stated, one method that can simplify the situation is this:
Originally posted by Jon A Jon A wrote:

My preferred method is dialing elevation and holding wind so in the past with such scopes I've simply printed my drop chart in MOA for drop, Mil for wind.
To expand on that, you really need to put together a drop chart. Most people do that with the aid of a ballistics calculator, such as JBM, as a starting point. Then they verify their drops in the field with actual shooting. I won't get into the particulars of using a ballistics calculator correctly, but will say that they can be quite accurate...if the values you put into it are accurate and the settings are used correctly. Also, it's hard to do without a chronograph to measure muzzle velocity and high-quality ammo.

But let's just get back to the basics here. You can take some reasonably good ammo and go out and shoot it at known ranges to establish your drops, e.g. 100, 200, 300, 400 yards for now. Start at 100 and zero the rifle. If you like to be a couple inches high, that's fine. Once you have the elevation and windage zeroed, loosen the turrets and set them to zero for that range.

Now move to a 200 yard range and start shooting directly at the center of the target. Ignore windage for now. Just dial up the elevation until you know how many clicks it takes to hit dead center. Do the same for 300, 400 and so on and you'll have established the number of clicks from your zero for each range.

Regarding windage, here are a couple of reasons why you can comfortably use the reticle instead. One is that, compared to drops, the adjustments are not extreme. For example, @ 400 yards, a fairly stiff  20 mph breeze from 9 o' clock will push one of my .308 loads 1.7 mils to the right. I can move the crosshairs 1.7 mils left and still have 3.3 mils to work with. Another reason is that, if you take a follow-up shot, you can note how many mils off your point of impact was and just correct with the reticle. Note, however, this is easier said than done for many shooters. If you can't keep the reticle on the target (more or less) during the first shot it's almost impossible to spot the impact and correct for it.

I find it best to use a calculator like the free, online JBM, to create the windage part of chart. You'll have to do your best to enter the most accurate values you can. I can hardly recommend doing that in good conscience without some details on how to do that the right way, but for now, consider that a good starting point is a 10 mph crosswind (90 deg.) and you will need to set the column 2 units to mils.

Just so I can have an excuse to reuse this diagram I created, here is an illustration showing a correction made with a mil-dot reticle:


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2010 at 12:33
Blackbird97 View Drop Down
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That is some awesome information, where or how did you learn that? the reason I ask is because I'd like to get my hands on a tutorial, or a book that would give me this type of insight. Thanks for you're quick reply. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2010 at 12:47
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http://swfa.com/Mil-Dot-Master-P91.aspx   thirty bucks well spent.
 
 
You can use the mil dots for determining range of known size objects but you can also use the mil dots for hold over at known distances by charting trajectory drop in both mil and moa both of which are measurements of an angle like a piece of pie.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2010 at 13:31
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Originally posted by Blackbird97 Blackbird97 wrote:

And there is no way to use them both in unison? Sorry guys, I am sure this i really simple, 

Yes, there is an easy way and it is quite simple.  Trade in your scope for a SS 3-9X or 10X HD model with Mil turrets.    You asked for simple, not free.....  Big Grin
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2010 at 13:36
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Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:

One is that, compared to drops, the adjustments are not extreme. For example, @ 400 yards, a fairly stiff  20 mph breeze from 9 o' clock will push one of my .308 loads 1.7 mils to the right. I can move the crosshairs 1.7 mils left and still have 3.3 mils to work with. 

That's a good point.  5 Mils of elevation on the reticle won't get you too far unless you zero the scope on one of the upper dots or something.   But for windage, if you need more than 5 mils of wind it's probably best to save your ammo for another day.

Of course the big one for me is that the wind seems to be always changing.  Using the reticle you can watch the wind through your scope and adjust your hold with your finger on the trigger.  If you're having to dial an adjustment every time it can be frustrating.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2010 at 18:29
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Originally posted by Blackbird97 Blackbird97 wrote:

That is some awesome information, where or how did you learn that? the reason I ask is because I'd like to get my hands on a tutorial, or a book that would give me this type of insight. Thanks for you're quick reply. 


I'd tell ya, but I'd have to kill ya. Well, actually, my wife wants to kill me some times for dinking around with this stuff so much. Big Smile

I got a lot of info from people on Optics Talk and a few other sites. Otherwise, through trying it all out, asking questions of more experienced shooters and some of the ballistics experts that are around. I highly recommend Bryan Litz' book, Applied Ballistics for Long Range Shooting.

At some point, I'll post a condensed version of what I've learned about properly using ballistics programs like JBM. I don't claim to be an expert but have tried to improve my shooting. Also, one other thing: I agree with JonA about moving to a mil/mil scope that is FFP. But I still use my SFP scope just as much because it only goes to 10X and that's a pretty useful magnification setting. I sometimes wish it had matching turrets though.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: March/26/2010 at 19:09
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JonA's method is the best around for using a MOA/Mil scope.  Very difficult to dial wind, at least from my experience.  CAN be and HAS been done successfully but most often some portion of the "wind solution" will revert to a "hold". 
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